.58 caliber popularity question.

[FL-Flinter]

Hey Hellgate,

Now I hear you guys talking about your great successes with the round balls using 110+ loads, which was not my experience at all! At 100 yards the target is almost obscured by the sights, so its pretty much pray & spray at that distance! I fell like I must be doing something wrong, do you have any info to share in regards to your Musketoon's performance at various ranges and loads?

Not "wrong" ... just not "right".

There's a whole laundry list of possibilities as to why the PRB's didn't group, anything from something you did or didn't did to something mechanical wrong with the gun. Mini's are somewhat less dependent on the crown, muzzle section of the bore and other such things being close to perfect than PRB's do. Did you wipe between shots? Use proper loading techniques? Low-quality balls? Patches not right? yadda, yadda, yadda .......

You really have to begin at square one verifying the parameters of the gun and the quality/consistency of the consumables - that's not a dig on anything/anyone it just is what it is. The rifling for mini's is generally on the fast side for PRB's and pushing a less-than-perfect PRB with too many RPM's makes them go wild. If the nipple is washed out too much, just like a vent on a flintlock, it'll cause very erratic performance being that PRB's are considerably lighter than mini's, the effects are much more easily noticed. Get a notebook and write down everything you try and the subsequent results - start at some point, try different patch/ball combinations, different powder charges and granulations and see what happens. Some guns will shoot about anything, others are very particular on the load parameters and it may take a while to find out what the gun wants. It's not uncommon to have a gun that won't shoot 3F but will group well with 2F; some want a patch/ball combo you have to start with a mallet, others are happy with a combo that's just a little snug.

[RBak]

I think Fl-Flinter 'pert-niert' nailed it with that post.

IMO, he kinda sumed it all up quite well when he said, "There's a whole laundry list of possibilities as to why the PRB's didn't group, anything from something you did or didn't did to something mechanical wrong with the gun".

There's times when finding that certain "sweet spot" is fun, and there's times the search can drive you crazy. The old saying of never changing more than one thing at a time can certainly have meaning when striving for accuracy in this game too.

Russ

[northmn]

Fl-Flinter's pretty much correct about patched roundball. The wrong lube can also cause problems. Some have prelubed them with liquid lube and had it dry out. the patches get blown apart. Generally, with my experience with them, they will shoot pretty fair on my first loading. I may not get great accuracy but they will shoot pretty fair. I had a 58 Green River barrel that did not want to shoot well with less than 140 grains of 2f, but I am talking about X-stick accuracy where I expected all ball to be touching or 5 shot groups that looked like 3-4 shot groups. It would still hit a deer at 100 yards with 100 grains, but would not win matches. I played with REAL bullets in a double gun and coudl not say the same for them as they would pattern with some loads and not group. When I took out my 58 to work up a load, I wanted to try 90 grains of Swiss 2f. It shot that load well enough to easily sight in and to give confidence in the combo as a deer rifle. I pretty much knew where to start with lube and patch and ball size to begin with. I stayed with the first combo.

DP

[Ron60]

Photo is of a .58 coach gun (rifle) I built for a fellow about 5 years ago. Had all of a 20" or so barrel! Shot both round balls and the original minies very well. The barrel was rifled by Bobby Ryle (sp?).
It grouped at about 4" at 100 yards from a steady rest. The charge it liked most for this accuracey was 90 grains of FFG. It was not altogether that much fun too shoot after 10 rounds or so. But it would make for one handy little brush rifle which is what the guy wanted it for. Went for $3700 so don't be too upset about parting with the better part of $1000 for a decent reproduction musket that shoots well!
There is a few molds of more or less original style minei's that are .578" rather than the standard .575 and they may work better in some muskets.
I'm not attempting to sell guns here but I have a few more photos of that little thumper. If you email me I'll be happy to send you a few.
Ron

[Hellgate]

One of the big advantages of the short barreled .58s is how handy they are in and around vehicles. It's kinda hard to hold one with 42" barrels without having the muzzle poking out the window of laying in the back seat.

As for recoil, I do put a sand bag betwixt my shoulder and the gun butt when working up a load at the bench and it is nice. When you are aiming at game recoil isn't noticed unless you have a narrow curved gun butt as seen on some of the T/C Hawken style rifles.

[northmn]

One of the big advantages of the short barreled .58s is how handy they are in and around vehicles. It's kinda hard to hold one with 42" barrels without having the muzzle poking out the window of laying in the back seat.

I have been finding that also. Also shorter barrels are handier in deer stands adn blinds.

DP

[RBak]

You made an interesting point on barrel length.....For years I though a muzzleloader simply had to have a loooong barrel, the longer the better.

However, over the past 15 years or so I have become convinced that a short barrel will also get the job done...... Especially the shorter heavier 1" barrels.

I have three 1" barrels for my Big Boar Renegade...the .58 Big Boar, a .56 smooth bore, and a new .50 cal fast twist from Green Mountain that I got from our own Good Cheer....all of these are short barrels, and all are 1" across the flats, and they all shoot really good.
I have never chronographed either of these barrels. However, as soon as the winter breaks, and spring gets here, I intend to do a charge by charge comparison between the .58 Big Boar and my 1861 Colt 3 Band in .58 cal.

Although I got the 1;28 fast twist for conicals and long / longer range shooting, so far I have been absolutely amazed at how accurately it will shoot a round ball at 50 yds....contrary to popular belief the fast twist can take some fairy hefty charges without stripping, however the heaviest load I have tried in it has been 70gr FFFg .490 ball, and .012 patch with homemade lube and the darn thing is a tack driver with that load. Now some mat say that is not a hefty load and they may be right, but it is an extremely accurate load and I would certainly hunt deer with that load.

For years, everything I have heard and read lead me to believe this would not work, needed a slower twist in order to shoot a round ball accurately, and on and on...I don't know if 70gr is the limit, and from here on out things go South, or what the deal is, but as soon as we get a weather change here in my area, I am going to find out.
I also plan to chronograph this .50 cal load in this barrel against against my 40 year old T/C Hawken with a 1:48 in .50 cal, using the same powder loads.

I don't know what I expect to prove, probably nothing other than knowing myself what each barrel will or won't do, but it sounded like a good idea and now I need to just get on with it.

Russ

[Ron60]

70 grains in back of a .490 ball is a nice load. Would like to know how well that 1:28 works at 100 yards though.
I had a T/C Hawken just about 37 - 40 years back - had that stupid micro grooving and wouldn't shoot worth spit with anything. Traded it for an old Antonio Zoli (I think) Zoave. That thing shot round balls really well with a tight patch. Minnie balls shot around corners with it.
Will be interesting to see how well you do with the 1:48 twist. I'll be surprised if it shoots well with much over 5o grains. The grooves in those things, even the standard cut rifling were pretty shallow.

[daddywpb]

My .58 shoots good with PRB and 80 grs FFg Goex, but I found that as I increased the charge, the groups shrank. Now I use 100 grs and a .018 patch.

[northmn]

There has been a bit of discussion on twist on another site. Most religously adhere to the theory that slow twists are more accurate with heavy loads and fast twist with lighter loads. Some love some formula for determining the twist which works with bullets but not roundball. When one gets the combined experience of several barrel makers and shooters togehter one finds that with a round ball twist rate does not seem to mean much. When they started slowing down the twist rates in custom barrels it was because slow twists fouls a little less and some think that they are reasonably accurate over a wider range of loads. The 1-48 twist in 50's -54's has had a reputation for being very accurate, but that is when they are coupled with ROUND BALL RIFLING, which is deep rifling designed to take thicker patches. The 1-48 twist in the TC Hawkens as a "Comprimise" twist really is so because the rifling was made shallower to accomodate slugs. Still I have seen some very impressive performances out of TC's (and also the old Numrich barrels). It does not surprise me that a faster twist barrel will shoot RB if a tight patch is used.
Many shooters also find that fouling is best controlled by using wet patches lubricated in stuff like Lehigh Valley lube, windshield washer, #9+ or just plain spit. Using a tighter patch combo and this type of lube they can shoot longer without swabing. Works great on the range but not worth sour owl droppings when carried for any length of time as the lubes dry out or can rust the bore.

DP

[Alan]

Northmn,
Ayup, the lubes that will do that for hunting are a bit more expensive, generally. Once you get the ball/patch/lube angle worked out, you literally NEVER have to swab between shots. This is also assuming you have shot the gun enough to really polish the barrel. I find that regular old olive oil will get you most of the way there, but some swear by mink oil, as sold by ToTW.

My kodiak has somewhat shallow rifling and a 48" twist, and I find that it takes a really tight patch combo to shoot well. My .72 with the shallow rifling and a 1:75" twist was much more forgiving.

[FL-Flinter]

UGGGHHHHHH! I hate that "compromise" word because it's total BS!

Sorry DP, not ragging on you man, just hate it when that comes up because it's truely nothing but more gun rag BS sales hype from T/C ... ranks right up with "seasoning the bore" like it's a flippin' cast iron fry pan instead of a gun barrel ... not all that far off from the "stones in bunderbuss" myth either! Any time you see the word "compromise" replace it with the word "worthless".

Yes, the 1:48 has limited functionality with both conical and ball but it is not optimum or efficient with anything. The faster the twist, the more velocity loss with PRB and trying to compensate with heavier charges puts too much RPM on the balls increasing the probability of loosing accuracy. Conicals must be properly designed to function with the limited twist and the majority will not obtain enough RPM's to maintain accuracy beyond limited ranges.

Pardon the limited reply on this, I'm on the laptop while waiting on parts for the desktop and my arthritic fingers & carpal tunnel don't agree with this keyboard.

Mark

[northmn]

The TC comprimise twist is actually fussier than a good round ball twist when round balls are used, but I saw an individual beat maybe 70 competitors, some very good shots with custom rifles at a BP match with a TC. He shot a 48 offhand at 100 yards with it. Still there is a reason that companies are selling piles of roundball barrels for TC's. The 1-48 inch twist would be a bit fast for a 58 RB but in a 50 has won some bench matches where they have to shoot on 6 bull targets to make sure all shots are counted (the 6th bull is a sighter) Don Getz claimed that if he picked one twist for his custom barrels it would likely be a 1-48. It was a pretty standard twist on original Hawkens along with a 1-60. It si still a matter of rifling style. Some have claimed taht the 1-48 is also "fussier". that is why the barrel makers have gone to slower twists. My 1-70 twist 50 does seem to be pretty forgiving. It is a minor point anyway as the 1-48 twist in barrel blanks is primarily made in 40 cal and smaller and is realtively slow for those calibers. To get taht twist in a barrel would require a few extra dollars for a special made one which I do not consider worth it. I am talking round ball. For conicals, I believe the 1-48 is Ok in a 58, but is too slow in the smaller bores. But then the 58 tends to be loaded lighter with conicals. The military load was pretty anemic at 60-70 grains.

DP

[FL-Flinter]

DP,

For other-than-long-range match guns, there's nothing wrong with the 1:48 for PRB's in the smaller bores. When you try jacking up the horsepower for long range match and hunting, that's when it becomes very picky and you're still loosing velocity because of the twist. With conicals, you're still range limited because once they get so far down range, they don't have enough spin to maintain stability. I can't even tell you how many hundreds of conicals I've put downrange for testing but I can tell you that even with loads well in excess of the OEM maximums, Lee, REAL, T/C Maxi, Lee Modern Mini's, Ballettes, PA Con., PA Hunter, the one in the green box (brand escapes me at the moment) .... not a single one of them would maintain consistency/accuracy beyond 90yds from 1:48 twist bores. I use the T/C Hawken 28" bbl, Lyman Deerstalker 25"bbl and an Italian 42" bbl and most crapped out past 60yds, only the Italian was able to produce reliable consistency past 90yds and that only with strip-patched Ballettes & an OP wad. Inside of 50yds, and one can tune them in pretty good, past 50yds is the iffy territory.

I have some clients who would beg to differ on PRB twists in the small bores too, I can tell you for fact that 1:72 works exceptionally well in the .40 and is more than capable of running with the .45 & .50 bores at least to 120 meters because my client has won several matches with that gun.

Thing is, in this day and age with the vast availability of custom barrels built to spec, why even consider messing around with something that's "iffy" at best when for the same amount of money you can buy something tailor made to what you're shooting?

Mark

[RBak]

I agree that the word "Compromise" is not the best word for describing the 1:48.
However, its utility has served many shooters well, and a better "all-around" twist has been slow in coming.

It is something of an accepted fact that it is not the single best twist for conicals, or Minie ball. It is also not the single best twist for round ball.
Still yet, for one gun, one barrel, but different style / shape projectiles, I think all of us must admit it has served us well over the past 200 plus years.

The different style, shape, and rifling depth found in any 1:48 has a lot to do with the performance of whatever the projectile we should be shooting at the time, and this always begs the question of which is the absolute best....best for who? best for what?

I think northmn described things about right when he said the 1:48 twist is a little bit more "fussy" than some others....this is a very descriptive term in any such discussion......It simply says it can be done.

About all one could add to his description might be something to the effect, "that twist rate combined with style / depth of riffling can get even fussy-ier" (if there is such a word as fussy-ier).
Some combinations are simply more forgiving than others, and occasionally some of us manage to strike up a nice balance right from the start, yet other seemingly same situations can be downright cantankerous, and we blame it on a lot of things because we are not sure of that one single cause.....

Just thinking out loud, I suppose.

Russ

[Chris Smith]

My Zoauve has 1 in 66 (I think) twist. Thats pretty close anyway, it's slow anyway. And it's three grove.