Catastrophic Failure - Swedish Mauser m/1896

[Dutchman]

I don't remember if I ever posted these photos in this forum but with the other topic of the Spanish 1916 catastrophic failure http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34549 coming up I thought it might be a good idea to have this as a separate subject.

The difference between the Spanish 1916 failure and this Swedish Mauser is we know exactly what caused the Swede to come apart. It was a double charge of fast pistol powder. The rifle resides in the UK so these photos were obtained for me by another very knowledgeable Swede collector who's USAF duty station is in the UK.

The Mauser m/1896 was taken out of general military service in Sweden some 12-15 years ago due to a bolt lug failure killing a young Swedish soldier. There are some m/94 carbines in use by the Livguard who has duty at the royal palace in Stockholm and their rifles are carried locked and loaded so they are not ceremonial. Swedish Mausers do fail in normal use many times for reasons that are not obvious. I would prefer to urge caution and care when handloading or shooting rifles that are 100+ years old. Metal fatigue is cumulative. If you feel the need to hotrod a Mauser do it with a 98 action.

[dromia]

A salutory warning that behoves us all to take heed of what we shoot and how we handload for it.

Was anyone hurt?

[PAT303]

There was allot written about the 96 in Oz when one blew to bits and we had ''experts'' coming out of the woodwork saying how dangerous they are.The rifle had had a scope mount arc welded to the reciever ring and the heat had caused the steel to change colour which obviously changed it's heat treatment but no one seemed to worry,old rifles are dangerous and that was that.I personally will shoot my 96 as long as my eye's work and enjoy it to the fullest. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Pat.

I do not consider "a double charge of fast pistol powder" as "hotrod(ing) a Mauser ". I seriously doubt a M98 or any other action would have fared much better. Loading a cartridge to potential for the action used is not "hot rodding" to me. We have seen numerous very similar photo's of modern actions from M70s to M700s to Weatherbys to most any other action that suffered very similar catastrophic failures. When we find the truth of the matter they were all caused by some error in loading causing SEE or an obvious overload as in this case. The problem was one of human error not metal fatigue. I shall also continue to load my M96/M38s to the same levels that I have been. I choose not to blame the inanimate object for a human eror. Everyone else is free to make up their own mind.

Larry Gibson

[blastit37]

Human error can certainly cause metal fatigue and that action HAS metal fatigue.

[Dutchman]

I do not consider "a double charge of fast pistol powder" as "hotrod(ing) a Mauser ".

I included that comment as a post script. You decided it was the context of the entire post and proceed to pick it apart in your usual contrary manner.

To be clear, nowhere in my note did I say I thought a double charge of fast pistol powder was hotrodding a Mauser. Nor did I suggest metal fatigue was the cause. I could have included more of a preface to those comments but I erred in supposing the reader of the comments would put 2 & 2 together.

My intent here is to prevent injury and destruction. I'd ask what your intent here is but I just don't care.

Dutch

[MtGun44]

Looking at the last picture, an excellent very sharp close-up shot.

I am seeing pretty good indication of a fatigue crack that went from the lower right of
the action ring, starting at the first thread and spiraling up and left, thru the whole
ring. The final piece of failure on the right side has the sort of smeared look lump and
then down the side parallel to the bore. This is all that was holding the action together
when if finally failed. It would not require any particular overload to cause the final
failure since a huge portion of the strength was gone due to the very large fatigue crack.

It would be interesting to know if the action would have showed up a on a magneflux or
zyglow check. I think it would be very likely since it appears that the crack had made it
out to the external surface. The biggest problem in finding cracks is if they are inside
where you cannot see them.

A very close inspection of an old rifle's action, with a very bright light and a 10X magnifier
would likely find this sort of crack. The good news is that the portion of the action that
is very highly stressed, and therefore would develop a fatigue crack, is pretty small in
square inches, so a good, slow, look for cracks would not really take a lot of time other
than pulling it apart to get full access to the front action ring all the way around and getting
the metal very clean.

Bill

[quasi]

a 98 Mauser is no stronger than a 96 Mauser. 98's do handle escaping gas better than a 96, but a 96 still handles escaping gas much better than Sako's, pre-64 M70'S, M-17'S, 1903 Springfields ...

[Larry Gibson]

Deleted the message, not worth causing an uproar over nothing. My apologies to Dutch for the inconvenience.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

[Dutchman]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

Your note is exactly why I take the time to post notes like these. Thank you for recognizing that.

Dutch

[excess650]

This is EXACTLY why I don't load smokeless in my M71 or 71-84 Mausers!

[Larry Gibson]

I add that maddenshooter's caution/reasoning should apply to all actions, new or 100 year old military ones. I don't think there is any "debate" about that. We've seen many new and "modern" actions in similar condition from the same high pressure load mistakes or SEE.

It should also be noted in many instances a "double charge of fast burning powder" is and of itself not dangerous and does not produce any over pressures for the cartridge/action. It is only when the double charge is sufficient to produce a serious over pressure is there a problem. That is not to say we can or should be sloppy in our loading practices as safety is paramount regardless of the charge.

If here is any "debate" here it is on the assumption that old and tired actions are not suitable for standard acceptable loads/pressures because "metal fatigue is accumulative". Presenting such photo's as a basis for that assumption is debatable. Dutch "would prefer" to advise lessor loads. Many of us disagree and advise that such actions are entirely capable of still handling normal pressures, there in lies the debate. Any disagreement has nothing to do with double charges of fast burning powders or overloading the cartridge otherwise.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Clearly, some old rifles have fatigue cracks. "Fatigue" by itself is a meaningless term in
metallurgy and machinery. If there is a high enough local stress that is repeated many times,
a crack can form. This is a fatigue crack. After it forms, it can travel and increase in size. Unless
there is a substantial crack, "fatigue in the action" or "fatigue in the metal" is a meaningless
statement.

Old metal is just fine, unless it is CRACKED. If cracked, it may also be fine if the crack is
small enough. Too big a crack and there is a serious safety issue. Understand that old metal
may have a poor pedigree, but pretty much whatever it was when it was made, unless cracked,
it is still the same. Now clearly old steels were MUCH more highly variable in their makeup and
in the understanding and execution of heat treating. For example, the poorly heat treated
early 1903 Springfields. Some old alloy steels were brittle originally. As a general rule,
high quality German or other European steels were pretty good from about 1900 on, less
certain earlier. As you move to lower industrialized countries, or just further back in time,
the risk of poor steels from poor knowledge or poor quality control increases a lot.

Zyglo crack detection is pretty affordable and I have a long unused kit at home. It consistes
of first a cleaner spray (a lot like carb or brake cleaner) and then a very low viscosity red penetrating
dye spray which is lightly sprayed on the area to be crack checked. After a few minutes the excess
is wiped off and a developer is sprayed on. The developer looks like white very flat paint. It is actually
just a white powder applied with a fast drying carrier solvent. If there is a crack, the red dye goes down
into it, then the white powder will suck the red dye back up making a red line in the pure white developer
coating where a crack exists. Simple, non-destructive and effective. Developer just wipes off, dry powder
very evenly applied.

I think I am going to spend some time going over my older milsurp rifles with my Zyglo kit when I get
back home.

Bill

[blastit37]

When an Engineer uses the term "fatigue", a crack is understood to be present. No crack, no fatigue.

[Dutchman]

If here is any "debate" here it is on the assumption that old and tired actions are not suitable for standard acceptable loads/pressures because "metal fatigue is accumulative".

Be more accurate in your quoting of what you think I'm saying. By misquoting me you change the flavor of the discussion.

Presenting such photo's as a basis for that assumption is debatable.

Once again I would advise you to make more of an attempt to comprehend what it is you're reading before you jump into something so quickly.

No where did I mention or suggest or say or imply that the photos were the result of CUMULATIVE METAL FATIGUE.

So it seems you're saying that metal fatigue being cumulative is a debatable assumption. Is this right? (rhetorical question.. please don't waste any more of my time answering)....

http://www.google.com/search?num=30&...ve&btnG=Search

Dutch "would prefer" to advise lessor loads.

You, Larry, are not authorized to speak for me.

No where, at any time, in any way did I make a statement that I advise "lessor loads" (quotation marks are yours not mine). You are attempting, very poorly, to steer the flavor of this thread that I started and are now changing it to suit your egocentric and obnoxious pattern.

If you continue on this path(ology) you're going to learn what my limits are for dealing with pathogens.


http://www.materialsengineer.com/CA-fatigue.htm

Fatigue Failure Analysis

Metal fatigue is a significant problem because it can occur due to repeated loads below the static yield strength. This can result in an unexpected and catastrophic failure in use.

[PAT303]

I was loading some 30-40s just the other day, using the 10B101 that Jeff Bartlett is selling now. I was about to put the boolit on and took a look into the case. My, that's a bit fuller than the last one! Something had interrupted me in the process, and sure enough I'd double charged it. Pictures like those above have made that last peek an absolute must. They are therefore well worth posting Dutch, no matter how much debate they generate, or from whom. There are a lot of others visit here who don't have the level of experience as some of our more seasoned loaders. They'll benefit from seeing what could happen with only a moment's carelessness. Keep them coming! They speak for themselves.

The one reason I use Trail Boss,it's impossible to double charge in the cases I use. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have seen two Swedes give way. Someone mentioned that they were as strong as 98s. I can't see that being right. The 98s have an extra lug apart from anything else. I have seen 98s fire incredibly hot charges and the bolt had to opened with a lump of wood. One had lug set back. The Swedes tha I have seen let go popped the barrels out and sent the extractors into orbit, but sort of held together apart from that.

There are many Swedes out there that have had the lugs set back but the owners are unaware of it. Strip the bolt, fit it back in the rifle, pull the closed bolt towards the rear and holding it there, try and open it. If it binds or catches, the rifle has sustained damage and metal has flowed into the split lug and that is where it binds. I found this out the hard way and we endedd up trashing the bolt and action and using the rest for spares. The gunsmith who pointed it out to me said that it was pretty common. He bought the rifle off me, removed the action from the stock, stripped the bolt and put the action and bolt under the dropsaw in front of me.

Don't hot rod Swedes, stick to something safer like juggling chainsaws or racing motorbikes.

[1Shirt]

Sure hate to see pics like these. It is sort of a loss of history! Love my Swedes, along with the rest of my milsurps. As always, I value Larry Gibsons thread greatly. Regarding the issue of double charges of fast burning powder, I am a great believer in the following:
If the powder does not fill at least half the case (a double charge would be up in the neck or overflowing), weigh the finished ctg's. If one weighs appreciably more than the others, you probably have a double charge, and need to pull the blt, and varify. Takes but a few minutes and it can save, good old rifles, and possibly good old shooters. The little battery powered scales make it fast and easy. It is important when doing this however to have the same brand/weight/batch etc. of brass. It is also important in my opinion to never reload when loading.
1Shirt!

[Freischütz]

I'd like to emphasize the importance of a final visual check of the powder level in a case.

Once, while checking 30/06 cases, I noticed that the powder in one case was higher. It wasn't enough to be a double charge. It was a layer of tumbling media that didn't pour out.