Hodgdon Clays

[Chief_10Beers]

What is the differance between Universal Clays, International Clays and Clays. All products of Hodgdon. HP-38 is getting scarse but Universal Clays and International Clays are availible in my area. All the Calibers I load Lead Cast with List Universal and Clays in the hodgdon Load data.

So does Universal= Universal Clays?.....................................

[skeet1]

If you are using HP-38 try looking for Winchester 231, it's the same powder. If that fails you might try Bullseye or Accurate #2 both fast powders similar to HP-38 in application. If you really want to use one of the Clays series of powders regular Clays is the fastest of the three and Universal Clays is the slowest. Both of these have considerable load data for handguns. International Clays does have some data but not much.

Yes, Universal is Universal Clays.

Skeet1

[c3d4b2]

Is there any 231 available?

If I am remembering correctly....

I do not believe International is suitable for pistol loads. I believe it was due to the rapid increase in pressure as the load was increased.

There are 3 clays powders Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. Of the 2 suitable for pistols Clays is faster and Universal Clays is slower.

There has been some discussions about having the 3 powders with the Clays name. The unofficial naming generally follows Clays, International and Universal.

Here are some links that may help....

http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp (If the link will work)
http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloadin...echart2011.pdf

[Chief_10Beers]

Is there any 231 available?

If I am remembering correctly....

I do not believe International is suitable for pistol loads. I believe it was due to the rapid increase in pressure as the load was increased.

There are 3 clays powders Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. Of the 2 suitable for pistols Clays is faster and Universal Clays is slower.

There has been some discussions about having the 3 powders with the Clays name. The unofficial naming generally follows Clays, International and Universal.

Here are some links that may help....

http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp (If the link will work)
http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloadin...echart2011.pdf

yep, W231 is not availible too. I can order on line but it's cheaper buying from the LGS+tax than paying a Hazmat Charge as I buy a pound at a time ( + that's all I can afford at this time ). I cast and load for 38/+P/357, 44 Mag and 45ACP. Other than the Clays Family availible in my area there is also Bullseye, Titegroup, Unique, 2400, 4227, H110&296( I have plenty of that when I used to load jacketed Bullets). For my cast Boolit loads I used HP-38 for all my calibers so I'm looking for an alternate to do the same. I know I can look in the reload manuals I have but what are your real world experiances useing one Powder for the Calibers I listed........................................

[c3d4b2]

I went through the same exercise a couple of years ago. I reviewed several boards and talked to other shooters and narrowed my search to either Clays or Titegroup. I ended up with Titegroup as it was the powder I could find at the time. I have not had any issues with the powder, but I am not noted for my pistol shooting . I have also used 700X and AA #2 with good success.

[Dean D.]

In my opinion you can't go wrong with Unique. Probably one of the most versatile powders ever made. I have used Unique in all the cartridges you listed with good success.

Just my opinion, it's worth what ya paid for it!

[Rocky Raab]

For reference, Clays is roughly equivalent to RedDot, and Universal Clays is roughly equivalent to Unique. Some charges may even be identical depending on the cartridge and use.

I have and use all four of those powders. Frankly, Clays and Universal measure better, burn cleaner and are just as good as their Alliant pairings in all respects.

[KYCaster]

For reference, Clays is roughly equivalent to RedDot, and Universal Clays is roughly equivalent to Unique. Some charges may even be identical depending on the cartridge and use.

I have and use all four of those powders. Frankly, Clays and Universal measure better, burn cleaner and are just as good as their Alliant pairings in all respects.

I agree with what Rocky says except for the phrase, "in all respects."

Working with 45ACP, I've found that Universal tends to get a little erratic when approaching the top end of its useful range, whereas Unique has more of a linear rise in pressure as charge weights increase. Because of that I limit Universal to moderate loads and use Unique for +P pressures.

Titegroup is the same thing as W452AA that Winchester discontinued when it fell out of favor with the IPSC crowd due to its reverse temp sensitivity. When the temp would go up the burn rate would go down, resulting in some disappointed shooters at the chrono stage. Hodgden picked it up shortly after Win dropped it and its gaining some popularity again. Not a problem if you understand its quirks.

Of the powders Chief listed, I'd choose Clays over Bullseye for target and plinking loads in the .38, just because it burns so much cleaner. Titegroup for moderate loads in all the cartridges listed because it's roughly equivalent to HP38. Unique for +P loads and 2400 when you want to get serious with the .357 and .44.

Good advice from everyone so far.

Good luck.
Jerry


Edit to add: I haven't had any problem finding HP38 around here, a couple of shops keep it in stock. Maybe you could ask your LGS to add a couple of pounds to their next order.

[35remington]

KY, I don't believe Titegroup is the former 452AA.

What Hodgdon distributed that was identical to 452AA.....that is, the very same thing, was Trap 100. This is pretty well known. Both are discontinued.

It is unlikely that they would take Trap 100/452AA and rename it Titegroup after it had already been discovered to be lacking in some respects, and then try to pass it off as something else to the shooters that already had rejected it as being unsuitable for their use!

I suspect there would be a lot of irritated pistol shooters complaining to them if they had. Hodgdon didn't pick it up after Winchester dropped it because they were already distributing it as Trap 100. When Winchester dropped it, so did Hodgdon.

Titegroup doesn't have the temp sensitive issues that Trap 100/452AA did.

I have on hand, and have shot, Trap 100/452AA and Titegroup. I still have nearly a full pound of Trap 100/452AA left.

Do a Google or ask Hodgdon.

[excess650]

I prefer powders that burn clean and meter well, so like Clays and Universal Clays. That said, Unique has a lot of uses. For 357 and 44 mag loads and your options, any of the slow burners will get it done. 2400 and 4227 will both burn in lower densities than H110 or WW296. I've not tried Tite Group.

[Rocky Raab]

KY, I should have added "in my experience" to that sentence. I don't load for 45ACP, and so have not experienced any quirkiness to Universal. Thanks for the addendum.

As for Titegroup, no it is NOT the same as 452AA.

[geargnasher]

I prefer Universal and Clays to their Alliant equivalents, but only because they burn cleaner at the same given pressure.

Unique is MUCH more versatile than Universal, even though they have similar burn characteristics. If you want to find this out for yourself, load Universal in a medium-sized bottleneck rifle cartridge that you would use Unique for, and see your accuracy fall apart.

Clean doesn't always = BEST, but being a mechanic I really don't like leftovers in my gun barrel.

Gear

[skeet1]

I agree with Dean D. Unique is one of the most versatile powders around. I just purchased 8 lb. from Powder Valley and the price is better than most other brands of powder also, $98.50.

Skeet1

[KYCaster]

As for Titegroup, no it is NOT the same as 452AA.

I can't claim to be an expert on the subject, I'm just repeating what a tech at Hodgden confirmed when I asked him.

Jerry

[Rocky Raab]

KY, I wasn't making aspersions. But it is very odd indeed that a Hodgdon tech would say such a thing. Not having been present to hear the conversation, I can't guess who mistook whose words, but that's what I suspect happened. Either way, no blame to you; you are merely reporting what you honestly believe.

[KYCaster]

Rocky and 35Remington, I don't consider correcting a mistake as criticism. No harm, no foul.

I don't feel that there was any misunderstanding at the time. I discussed it with the tech until I was sure that both of understood what I wanted to know. This took place very shortly after Hodgden introduced Titegroup.

I certainly don't want to be repeating bad information, so I'll contact Hodgden and see if I can get the complete history of 452AA, Trap 100 and Titegroup.

Jerry

[Rocky Raab]

Please do, as I'm now rather intrigued.

[KYCaster]

Just got off the phone with Dave at Hodgden. He told me that Titegroup is not the same powder as the old 452AA. He also told me that Trap100 was not the same as 452AA and that was confirmed by Tom, "who's been here for over 40 years and should know".

He said that at the time Titegroup was introduced it was a completely new technology and unlike any other powder on the market at the time.

Then I asked him if WSL, WST and WSF that were introduced by Win when they dropped 452AA had any thing in common with Titegroup. He told me they do not. That's something else I'd like to explore. At the time they were introduced Win claimed that WSL, WST and WSF (their "super" powders) represented new technology in canister powders...same as Hodgden claims with Titewad and Titegroup. AFAIK they're all made by St. Marks so I suspect that some of them may be the same.

At this point Dave became a bit impatient and I got the feeling he didn't really want to answer any more "technical" questions, but I persisted.

He said he doesn't know of any source that describes the products of various powder manufacturers and who distributes them under different brand names.

At this point I was pretty certain that Dave didn't have the answers I was looking for so I let him off the hook.

Contrary to my earlier conversation with Hodgden, I now believe that Titegroup is the powder that replaced Trap100/452AA rather than being identical. Other than that, I don't think I accomplished much. In spite of what Dave said, I've found enough references to Trap100/452AA to believe that they are indeed the same powder with different labels, but I'm not going to repeat that until I can find some way to trace the canister label back to the manufacturer.

Does anybody know of a cross reference of canister label to manufacturer?

Jerry

BTW....while searching for info on St. Marks I came across a reference to a govt. liquidation auction that closed last week. The sale included 44,000 lbs of WC872. It didn't say if the final bid met the reserve, but we may be seeing more surp powder available.

[Rocky Raab]

Dave is home from SHOT and back to work already, huh? He must've been frazzled and had nine other calls on hold if he seemed impatient. No matter - nice guy.

That's about what I expected to hear, Jerry. "New" powder technology has - I hate to say it - exploded in the last decade or two. Clays technology started it all or was one of the first, and then Extreme powders. The powders used in Light Magnum ammo and now the Superformance powders continue the trend.

The breakthrough for TiteGroup (and TiteWad) had to do in part with new deterrents that made them essentially non-position-sensitive. That has little import for TiteWad, but major implications for TiteGroup, of course.

A label to maker list would be a bit confusing, because makers change a lot more often than labels. Just as one example, Accurate #2 has been made by at least four makers in four countries while still being called #2. Load data has had to change along with some of those shifts, because even with the same specs, things didn't always turn out precisely the same.

However, for recent Hodgdon/Winchester powders, the following pairings are in fact the same powders in different cans:

HP-38=W231
HS6=W540
HS7=W571
H110=W296
H414=W760

Contrary to rumor H335 is NOT W748, by the way.

Others I know about were that WXR was in fact RL-19 and the old Herters powders were identical to Reloder powders as well. Unless you still have some (I do!) that doesn't matter much.

[KYCaster]

Dave is home from SHOT and back to work already, huh? He must've been frazzled and had nine other calls on hold if he seemed impatient. No matter - nice guy.

I didn't mean to imply that Dave was anything other than courteous and professional. Far from it. I was just pushing him for answers he doesn't have. I doubt if I would have been so nice if the situation were reversed. I've called Hodgden on several occasions and have no complaints with their customer service.

That's about what I expected to hear, Jerry. "New" powder technology has - I hate to say it - exploded in the last decade or two. Clays technology started it all or was one of the first, and then Extreme powders. The powders used in Light Magnum ammo and now the Superformance powders continue the trend.

The breakthrough for TiteGroup (and TiteWad) had to do in part with new deterrents that made them essentially non-position-sensitive. That has little import for TiteWad, but major implications for TiteGroup, of course.

A label to maker list would be a bit confusing, because makers change a lot more often than labels. Just as one example, Accurate #2 has been made by at least four makers in four countries while still being called #2. Load data has had to change along with some of those shifts, because even with the same specs, things didn't always turn out precisely the same.


Well yeah, I understand what you're saying, but back to Chief Ten Beer's dilemma...if your powder of choice isn't available it would be nice to know if there is an identical replacement. Maybe I'm just looking for someone to do the legwork for me, but I haven't yet found any info at all other than internet discussions like this where somebody mentions a direct replacement. I'm sure you can understand my reluctance to trust my safety to an anonymous source.....refer to my earlier faux pas.

So, who ya gonna call???

However, for recent Hodgdon/Winchester powders, the following pairings are in fact the same powders in different cans:

HP-38=W231
HS6=W540
HS7=W571
H110=W296
H414=W760

Contrary to rumor H335 is NOT W748, by the way.

Others I know about were that WXR was in fact RL-19 and the old Herters powders were identical to Reloder powders as well. Unless you still have some (I do!) that doesn't matter much.

Anyway, please forgive me for hijacking your thread Chief. I hope I haven't caused a lot of confusion.

Jerry

Edit to add:

Well, color me embarrassed.....I just now noticed Wiljen's sticky at the top of this forum. He lists several ADI=Hodgden, Win=Hodgden and RWS=Alliant. Some other equivalents are listed in posts by others. Not a complete list by any means, but exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Thanks Will.