Big Hairy Questions - Fast Powder vs Slow Powder for CB in Rifles

[Maven]

DoctorBill, Not Chargar, but I've used 16+ lbs. of WC 860, a ball powder which is almost the same as WC 872, and never had even an inkling of a problem with it. As Chargar mentioned, as long as the case capacity is >40 grs. and you use almost a caseful of it (with LR Mag. primers), there will be little chance of a secondary explosion. That means charging at least to the neck-shoulder junction, little/no compression, and NO fillers.*


*I tried WC 860 with and without spherical shot buffer in various .30cal. cartridges and found no benefit in doing so with one exception. To wit, in the 7.65 x 53mm Arg. Mau., using Ly. #314299, the addition of ~1cc spherical shot buffer allowed me to drop the powder charge to 43 grs. (from 44) and resulted in more efficient burning as evidenced by clean necks and little unburned powder in the fired cases.

[Char-Gar]

Dr. Bill... I am with Maven and others who don't see any particular issues with ball powder vs. stick or flake powder. The same rules apply to each.

With very slow powders like 'WC872 and others it takes a light compression of the powder to get a good burn. Most often you can just use a case full. You do this by using a long drop tube or shaking the loaded cases. I set a loading block full of charged cases on top of the vibrating case tumble for a couple of second.

If the full case produced more velocity that works well for your bullet and alloy, then I add PSB (Precision Shotshell Buffer) on top of a little less powder and still get compression. My best 30-06 load ever is 50/WC872/1 cc PSB/Remington 9.5 primer. I have not found a magnum primer to be needed. I am a beliver that a tight powder column works best so I use fillers where some others don't. I won't swear I am right, but that is the way i do it.

You can purchase it on line from Precision Reloading. Google will give you the addy.

As I stated in myprior post a fast burning powder will do for almost all of your cast bullet shooting with the parameters I metioned. I am a Geezer who started reloading when Dupont (IMR and SR) and Hercules were the only game in town. Hodgen was still selling WWII surplus 4895, Ball C and 4831. These were the powders I used.

As time marched on, new powders became available and I gave them a try. Some of them did as well for me as the old standbys, others didn't. But none of them did better. After a while I just quit buying new powders. I am certain some of them work as well as my old favorites, but not having tried them (and don't plan to) I can't separate the sheep from the goats, powder wise that is.

While not a new powder Reloader - 15 came after I quit trying new powders, so I can offer no counsel on it's use.

There is something to be said about sticking with a few powder and becoming very familiar with what they will do and don't do. I see very little benefit to follow powder fad and fashion and jack rabbit around looking for the Holy Grain.

As I said 4759, 4227 and 2400 are outstanding cast bullet powders and I know that to a certainity from decades of use. I buy 2400 in bulk, not because it is better than the other two, but because I also use it in the .357 and 44 Magnum pistol rounds.

I am sorry about the data overload you are getting. Much of it is good solid information and some of it is..well let's just say..inaccurate!

Take care and keep em in the X ring.

[1Shirt]

Dr.Bill, If Larry Gibson, Charger, 44 Man, or Beagle comment on a thread I pay attention. Like Charger, I buy 2400 in bulk because, I use it for all my milsurps, my 357's, 44's, and 45-70. I use a fair amount of unique as well. Being cheap, is one of my reason for these powders and a little goes a long way in comparison to some of the slower powders. On all cases where my loads with 2400 or Unique, or other fast pdrs such as Red/Blue dot, I weigh all finished loads of an electronic scale, because I made a mistake once that I do not intend to make again. Regardless of your reloading sequence, with faster powders that do not fill at least half the case, I strongly recommend this practice.
1Shirt!

[Volowner]

Go with Trail Boss. I called IMR one day and they told me that the starting load for any cartridge is to fill the case, dump the contents on a scale, measure what's in there, reduce to 3/4 of that amount. Start there and work up. Call them yourself if you like. Their only warning was not to use it in smaller cases, like the 25-20.

You'll find this powder fills or nearly fills the case on almost any cartridge. I've got very low (usually in the teens) extreme spreads on everything I've used it in--45 colt, 44 special, 38 special, 45-70, 30-06, 375 Winchester (38-55), 7mm Mag, 7mm-08.

While I'm not ruling out the possibility, I have not yet found a "maximum load." All loads are very shooter friendly--mild kick, accurate and use very little powder.

Trail Boss is a voluminous powder. A "one-pound" container will only hold 9 ounces. It's great for filling up big cases for velocities up to about 1400-1500 fps.

[DoctorBill]

Methinks I'll buy a bottle of Trail Boss Powder !

If it is only 9 oz, it must cost 9/16ths of what a lb of regular smokeless
powder is going for - about $24 here in Spokane, WA at a discount
Sporting Goods Store (The White Elephant).

Right....? lol Ya, sure...ya betcha!

BTW - is it still "Smokeless" ? Does it burn cleanly ?

I wonder how they 'puff' up the volume of the granules ?

I think it would be a gas to work on powder research...until you blow yourself to bits,
that is..... !

...and another thing - some smokeless powder contains Nitroglycerine which a
small amount of makes the Heart beat like mad ! Has anyone ever had heart
palpitations from handling double based smokeless powders ?

DoctorBill

[Char-Gar]

"and another thing - some smokeless powder contains Nitroglycerine which a
small amount of makes the Heart beat like mad ! Has anyone ever had heart
palpitations from handling double based smokeless powders ?"

You are kidding, right?

[DoctorBill]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder

"Today, propellants based on nitrocellulose alone (typically an ether-alcohol colloid of nitrocellulose) are described as single-base powder,
whereas cordite-like mixtures using nitroglycerin to dissolve the nitrocellulose are known as double-base powder.
Single and double-base smokeless powders now make up the vast majority of propellants used in firearms."

This is also quoted from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin
Scroll down to the bottom.

"Side effects The side effects of nitroglycerin include lack of sexual desire, headache, painful urination and increased bowel movements.
Patients are often told to sit or lie down during and immediately after taking nitroglycerin to reduce the risk of low blood pressure.
A drop in blood pressure can be accompanied by weakness or dizziness.
Shortly after the invention of nitroglycerin, this substance was noticed to be capable of inducing a violent headache.
Headaches are the most prominent side effect of nitrate therapy. This was due to the release of nitric oxide (NO) by nitroglycerin.
Such studies have led to propose that NO may be the causative molecule in migraine pain.
The importance of NO as a potential initiator of the migraine attack opens new directions for other vascular headaches and
pharmacological treatment of migraines."

Nitroglycerin is dangerous to handle for a number of reasons !

Look here:
http://www.healthsquare.com/drugs/126792.htm


Another quote:
"It can be dangerous, yes. It can trigger a dangerous drop in blood pressure and resulting dizziness and confusion, plus it can cause
heart palpitations, shortness of breath, convulsions, and a number of other bad things.
In high enough doses it can be fatal.
However, a small dose, like the normal amount a patient with a heart condition might take, in a healthy person isn't particularly dangerous,
and will probably have no noticeable effects.

Medical attention should be sought if the person feels dizzy, short of breath, or has a rapid pulse."


Nitroglycerin can be absorbed thru the skin (thus patches mentioned above).
I suppose if you were to handle double based smokeless powder with bare skin, you maybe could get an episode of low blood pressure and headaches.
If you inhaled any of the dust, then probably for sure !

It only takes a 300 micrograms (1/200th grain) to affect the blood and heart.
http://www.rxlist.com/nitrostat-drug.htm

I wasn't kidding - though I know it is probably not a problem when
reloading unless one does something stupid (which has been known to happen !).


If a dog or a kid ingested some - Yikes !

0.01 grain is not very much considering that we load 30 to 70 grains of this
stuff into our brass and repeat that multiple times.
If I remember, these powders are on the order of maybe a couple percent Nitro...

Then there are several other goodies in there....just don't eat the stuff or inhale any of the dust from it.

I guess if all you want to do is reload and don't care to 'talk' with your wife because you "have a headache"
and have been on the pot a lot, you are getting too much Nitro in your system.....lol.


DoctorBill

[Char-Gar]

Oh, I know about double base and single base powders and the nitro content. I also know what nitro can do to the heart. I have had a few of those little pills stuck under my tongue. Gawd awful headach!

I just thought it was a little over the top to worry about any nitro in gun powder handled in the reloading proces. We have been using such powders such powders for over a century will no ill effect. We don't get headachs and heart rate change from such things. Folks with a high degree of specialized knowledge do tend to overthink some issues. It is true in my case, but on different subjects.

I really thought it was a little dry humor on your part. No slight intended!

[1Shirt]

Yep Charger, Over thought it is! Some people take a lot of fun out of life by being way to serious on trivial things, and not serious enough about things that really matter.
1Shirt!

[DoctorBill]

For God's Sake guys !

Lighten up a little.

"Humor - a strange concept" - Comment of a Vulcan crew member - Star Trek - Wrath of Khan.

"Nothing is more curious than the almost savage hostility that humor excites in those who lack it." ~George Saintsbury

Shrug.....

I bought two 'Bottles' of IMR Trail Boss powder today.

Strange looking stuff....



That is a Graf 8mmx56R Steyr-Mannlicher case, by the way - and it took 20 grains
to fill it to the neck. I'll start with 15 grains as per the instructions from IMR.

Here is what it looks like close up - just FYI for those who haven't seen it.



The VMD (Volume Measure Density) is 0.2172.
i.e. grains x VMD = vol in cc's.

I wonder how they bulk it up - lower the density, as it were ?
Has to be more than just the hole in the center....

I would love to be allowed to tour the IMR or Alliant manufacturing Facility and
watch them make these powders. 'Fascinating' as Mr. Spock would have said....

DoctorBill

[wills]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...hp/t-2751.html

Didn't Ed Harris suggest 15 grains of Red Dot?

[Bert2368]

I have managed to intake noticeable doses of nitroglycerin (and ethylene glycol dinitrate- even worse) by handling blasting explosives, never by handling double base propellants. Just don't eat it or work in a powder blending facility without an appropriate mask. Reading the literature on the various other ingredients in modern powder will make you want to practice good hygiene as well. Don't succumb to the temptation to eat or drink at the reloading bench-

Trail Boss will keep you out of trouble, at least as far as double charges are concerned.

Wills, that would be 13 gr of Red Dot. In 30-06 with a 311332 I also like 14 gr of Green Dot-

[MtGun44]

13 gr Red Dot is the Harris load. Never tried it personally, need to.

Bill

[PAT303]

DoctorBill,you'll need to fly to Australia to see it made.In my 8x57 I load a full case under the Maximum boolit and it shoots as good as the operator can hold it.It is also very good with 10grns under a non gas checked boolit for a light gallery load.My swede will shoot right on an inch at 100 with 10-12 grains under a CBE 150grn boolit and the best thing I've found with it is it doesn't heat up the barrel shooting lots of it. Pat

[DoctorBill]

You are right, Pat - I never thought to look at the label as to where Trail Boss is made !

Isn't ANYTHING but political B*llSh*t made in America anymore ?

I loaded up 15 grains in 8 bullets (20 grain max fill) of my 8mm Steyr, but the weather is crud here right now, so can't try it.
Very strange looking "powder" !

Just acquired an 03-A3 Springfield 30-06 a few days ago.
One beautiful rifle !

I will post pics on ParallaxBill's site when I get off my dead butt and take
some photos.

DoctorBill

[PAT303]

Look on the bright side,if you do decide to see where TB is made I've got a spare bed and an area the size of Canada we can hunt Camels and donkeys 5mins up the road. Pat

[4570guy]

I know where you are coming from in wanting to minimize your powder footprint. I personally use 4 basic powders that cover the burn rate range: Bullseye for pistols, SR4759 for 99% of my cast bullet shooting, 3031 for the medium burn rates (I've tried a few cast loads with it in .303 - worked reasonably well - intend to try more) and 4350 as my "slow" powder. I've only used 4350 in hunting loads with J-word bullets.

I have tried filler with both 4759 and 3031. I found no advantage to using filler in 4759, but it did help the 3031 loads.

[jimb16]

Unique and 2400 are the only ones I use.

[DoctorBill]

Of ALL the people (I hate to say 'guys', but it is true) out there reloading,
what percent of them are making and reloading CAST BULLETS ?

I have just started E-Mailing an Alliant 'Expert' asking about the use of 2400
powder for Military Rifle loads. (thinking of C.E. Harris)

He acts like he never heard of such a thing.

I wonder if they give squat about us Cast Bullet folk ?

I told him about C.E. Harris' writing - "Cast Bullet Basics for Military Surplus Rifles" -
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/pow...-e-harris.html
he said, "I am aware of CE Harris, but have not seen this article."

WHAT !?

He then said, "I have seen his article "The Load" which talks about cast bullets in rifle cartridges."
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

"...we have no idea how he conducted his testing, what type of equipment he used or how (or if) he
measured pressures. Therefore, we do not publish data that comes from outside sources because
we cannot positively vouch for its accuracy."

Which, of course, I would expect. I am not knocking Alliant, here.

What I don't understand - why do they not TRY his loads in their testing equipment to determine
pressures etc. since a BUTT LOAD of their powder is sold to us Cast Bullet Reloaders !?

Is this because we are in a vast minority ?

Am I wrong here ?

Do the powder manufacturers do the load testing or is that something they 'farm out' to outside testing
labs (i.e. they have to pay for it) ?
If so, I understand why they don't test Harris' loads - the bottom line....

DoctorBill

PS - We all know about the Harris web site - yes ?
http://www.frugalrifleman.com/

[chasw]

Dr Bill: For a lifetime supply of dacron, go to the Salvation Army or Goodwill store nearest to you and buy a cheap pillow. Be sure it is not filled with feathers or down. Dacron is very springy, while feathers compress easily and stay compressed until fluffed up again. When you get it home, cut a small hole in the cover and pull out a handful of nice clean dacron, aka polyester fiberfill.

Best way to use it is weigh out a tuft of about 1.5 grains and stuff it down into the case with a pencil or other suitable tool. Make sure its down against the powder charge, but not jammed into a tight wad. Since its so springy, you should have no trouble setting it so its fills the airspace from the powder to the base of the bullet. Better to have a little too much, than not enough.

Because its so fine, powder granules don't migrate into the filler. The net result is the equivalent of 100% load density, regardless of how big the case is. Upon firing, you can see the little fibers floating to the ground in front of your muzzle, they don't seem to melt from the heat of ignition. Good luck - CW