New Mould

[montana_charlie]

the naked bullet is groove diameter, and it is patched up to groove diameter, so I can use a harder alloy, no bump-up needed.

I'm guessing you meant to say the naked bullet is bore diameter, and patched up to groove diameter...no?

Of course, this bullet will be shot in a period-correct cartridge - 500/450 #2 Musket,

So...that's the bullet the little German gunsmith used to make reloads for Quigley!


Back to grooveless...
The wind dropped enough to satisfy me, so I went out to shoot. I did wipe the bore with a lightly lubed patch...using the dipping lube that's on the bullets.
I decided to just fire away as though it was a normal session... unless something made me change.
So, after setting up the bench and target, I loaded the Sharps and fired. With the sight where it is, I hit three inches right and an inch higher than I expected, but it was in the five inch bull.
Then, I blow tubed five breaths - and the second one loaded - but only with a strong thumb. After blow tubing for the third round, I could not get it deep enough to close the breech.

My target backing is a standard brown grocery bag with the target taped to the center, and it sits on a folding stand I made. While there were a number of rounds that hit the black (4 out of 9), I was doing good to keep them all on the bag. I think I could have got a better group with a bow...shooting from the hip.

I quit after 9 rounds (of the 15 I loaded) because the BP fouling was so heavy, and the leading so severe, I ran out of cleaning patches.
I had only taken a handful with me for wiping between shots, but it turned out that I basically had to clean the barrel (two wet patches and a dry one) and then dry the chamber, to load the next shell easily.

The amount of lead slivers coming out on the patches was surprising, and I know I wasn't getting all of it.
I didn't chonograph the load (forgot to take the box), but I doubt the velocity was too high for the 20:1 alloy.

The BP fouling might be less if I put more compression on the charge. GOEX is supposed to like a good bit. So, I'll add some more over-powder wads and pack it down some more. But the leading might be a permanent problem.

Cleaning the barrel (back at the house) with water-soaked patches brought out plenty of lead (perhaps enough to weigh) but the bore seemed to clean up, OK. I have a wipe of Kroil soaking in it now to see what else works loose.
(EDIT - Ran another patch through after the Kroil had two hours to soak in...that's when the work started. I think it's clean, now - but I'll check again in the morning. Whew!)

I haven't quit, yet. I'll make some adjustments and try some more. Maybe even go for some of those dang 'cookies'. But if things continue in the direction they started, I may lose my facination with grooveless bullets.
CM

[SharpsShooter]

Just my thoughts......grease cookie....lots more compression and .......if the boolit fits as well as you think, a bit harder alloy may be a help also. I guess I would try the cookie and compression first as they are easiest items to easily adjust. I might also be tempted to reduce the charge and work up to the point of boolit failure. 85 grains is far to much for a starting load. 55-60 would be a better choice IMHO. I have shot heavy boolits with large charges and on several occasions, reducing the charge corresponded with better groups and eliminated leading issues.




SS

[montana_charlie]

I guess I would try the cookie and compression first as they are easiest items to easily adjust.

The cookie will be easy enough if I place it between .030 veggie wads. I don't have a tool for punching wax paper, and other materials. Compression can be increased quite a bit if I make thick cookies.

I might also be tempted to reduce the charge and work up to the point of boolit failure. 85 grains is far to much for a starting load. 55-60 would be a better choice IMHO.

I'll tell you why I settled on 85 grains. First, this is a .45-90, so there is quite a bit of case to fill up.
Then, I have this formula for determining max loads based on case capacity, and with the bullet and wad only seated a bit over three tenths into the case, the maximum comes out 95 grains. That seemed a little rich, so I filled the case with powder to one tenth below the mouth...figuring on two tenths of compression. Weighing that charge came out at 85. So, you see, that was the least I thought I could get by with and still have enough compression to be useful.

And...Theodore uses 85 grains under this bullet in a .45-90, although he uses Swiss. GOEX usually doesn't get as much velocity as Swiss under equal conditions.

Of course, there are other ways to use up space. I just didn't want to get complicated if not necessary.

Maybe I'll have to look for some of those lubed felt wads that martinibelgian likes...
CM

[SharpsShooter]

Ok your choice of charge makes a bit more sense. I did not recall the mention of it being a 45-90 and thought you were simply seating them out to increase case capacity in a 45-70. Still, I would not look to start with nearly full throttle loads. 70-75 grains, a .030 veggie wad, a .20 cookie and a .030 card wad at the boolit base. I know most would say seat it out to the lands, but that is not a law. I have a 75 C.Sharps that likes to jump .025 or it will not stay under 1.5" at 100yds.

I predict you will get a good bit of trigger time before you find the proper combination. That's half the fun.

SS

[joeb33050]

I've had some luck with cream of wheat over the powder, under the bullet, to eliminate leading in my C. Sharps and other BP rifles. I put a card wad over the BP, then COW, then compress the whole business a little with the dipped bullet.
Works for me, hasn't failed yet, although getting great accuracy ~ 1.5 moa is still a struggle. You could try COW even when it's windy-you need to get rid of the leading.
joe b.

[martinibelgian]

CM,

Of course you're right - land diameter naked bullet to be patched up to groove diameter.
As to your grooveless bullet - maybe next time try 1st wiping between shots, and blowtubing afterwards. That way, you'll get the leading later...
FWIW, I shoot a mini-groove 250gr .323 bullet in front of 76gr of Swiss 1 1/2Fg, no leading, but I normally wipe between shots. I did try a few blowtubing though, and I had no problems if I didn't seat the bullet too long. This one has a 1: 9.5 twist, and based upon bore diameter and mowder capacity, it should really be a fouler. Apparently, it works out much better than I feared. Now I still have to get good accuracy...

[45 2.1]

CM-
Sorry about your results. I will note one thing though, if you go back to that magic boolit article and look at the 3G boolit, it DOES NOT match the dimensions given there or any others on this thread. The bore ride nose is a lot longer than given and the nose radius is a lot larger. That would give a more than adequate bearing surface. The picture could be measured and scaled to get a very close replica of it also. He also mentions a damp patch on a bore brush wipe on each shot. With the leading issues you got, something about the dip lube looks suspiscious also. I sent Rick a drawing last night. You might want to discuss the 3G boolit picture with him before he cuts another to try.

[montana_charlie]

I will note one thing though, if you go back to that magic boolit article and look at the 3G boolit, it DOES NOT match the dimensions given there or any others on this thread. The bore ride nose is a lot longer than given and the nose radius is a lot larger. That would give a more than adequate bearing surface.

So.....Thedore's numbers don't match his pictures, his new numbers don't describe a bullet that's as functional as his old numbers, and the bullet in his picture looks better than any of his numbers.
Is that what you are telling me?

Comparing the differences between 'mine' and his picture, the first that I notice is the bore ride length. When you first expressed doubts about 'mine', you said, " I think the boolit is nose heavy with very little bearing surface."
From watching threads where you guys talk about 'bearing surface'...and the term seems to be applied to the grease groove portion...I took your opinion to mean that you didn't like the length of the base band, compared to the rest of the bullet.
This understanding (of mine) was strengthened by the sample bullets sent to me by another shooter. The base band on them is almost half of the overall length. But, he admits to having poor luck with them.

Am I to understand (now) that you feel the .300" bore ride is the weak spot?

He also mentions a damp patch on a bore brush wipe on each shot.

Yes, and that is wrapped on a nylon brush. Doing it the way he did it requires 'tools' I don't have, yet. My good cleaning rod is not flexible, and my Delrin rod has not arrived. So, when I damp patch between rounds, I run a patch on a nylon jag in from the muzzle, and shove it into the empty case (numbered in felt tip pen) which is still in the chamber...where it stays as the jag comes out. This is an effort to keep the chamber dry, and provides 'storage' for the patch so I can keep track of which round it followed.
I don't mind using Theodore's method, but I'm not 'equipped' for it, yet.

With the leading issues you got, something about the dip lube looks suspiscious also.

THAT is the thing which has been haunting me since getting into this project.

When Theodore agreed to be my mentor on grooveless, the way he worded his offer made me think he was planning to send me (for free) enough of his lube to give it a try. When it came down to it, I had to buy two pounds...and it ain't cheap. On the chance that I might fall out of love with the project, I asked him if the dipping lube can be 'modified' to make it into his lubrisizer stuff...just to have a way to use it up on grooved bullets...and he said "no".

So, I have to assume that he developed this lube for this purpose, and that it is so 'specialized' it doesn't closely resemble anything else.
Since he specifies 20:1 for alloy, that leaves me having to trust his lube engineering to prevent leading...and right now, I can't say that it works.

I applied it to the bullets exactly as his instructions described, and even observed the color change that was supposed to happen. So, I have to believe that it is on there the way it should be...at the right temperature. And, while there isn't any way to 'put more on', Theodore clearly says, "Don't go there." if wondering whether 'more is better'.

I pulled the bullets on those six left-over rounds from yesterday. For simplicity, I increased the compression enough to seat the base band fully in the case, and replaced the bullets. Now, the compression should be somewhat closer to what GOEX typically likes. If I have time, I'll shoot those today to see what, if any, difference that makes in BP fouling...and ease of chambering. Since this would be to check 'gun condition', I may not even put up a target...
CM

[45 2.1]

So.....Thedore's numbers don't match his pictures, his new numbers don't describe a bullet that's as functional as his old numbers, and the bullet in his picture looks better than any of his numbers.
Is that what you are telling me? Essentially yes, you've noticed the nose ride length isn't as he gave.

Comparing the differences between 'mine' and his picture, the first that I notice is the bore ride length. When you first expressed doubts about 'mine', you said, " I think the boolit is nose heavy with very little bearing surface."
From watching threads where you guys talk about 'bearing surface'...and the term seems to be applied to the grease groove portion...I took your opinion to mean that you didn't like the length of the base band, compared to the rest of the bullet. I count all the boolit length that touches metal, lands or grooves. Your boolit has a bore ride length of 1.555 calibers, not good on so heavy a boolit and one that is soft.
This understanding (of mine) was strengthened by the sample bullets sent to me by another shooter. The base band on them is almost half of the overall length. But, he admits to having poor luck with them. Boolit fit and temper problems

Am I to understand (now) that you feel the .300" bore ride is the weak spot? Partly. I have no basis to judge the fit in your rifle having no lead throat slug to measure.


Yes, and that is wrapped on a nylon brush. Doing it the way he did it requires 'tools' I don't have, yet. My good cleaning rod is not flexible, and my Delrin rod has not arrived. So, when I damp patch between rounds, I run a patch on a nylon jag in from the muzzle, and shove it into the empty case (numbered in felt tip pen) which is still in the chamber...where it stays as the jag comes out. This is an effort to keep the chamber dry, and provides 'storage' for the patch so I can keep track of which round it followed.
I don't mind using Theodore's method, but I'm not 'equipped' for it, yet.

THAT is the thing which has been haunting me since getting into this project.

When Theodore agreed to be my mentor on grooveless, the way he worded his offer made me think he was planning to send me (for free) enough of his lube to give it a try. When it came down to it, I had to buy two pounds...and it ain't cheap. On the chance that I might fall out of love with the project, I asked him if the dipping lube can be 'modified' to make it into his lubrisizer stuff...just to have a way to use it up on grooved bullets...and he said "no".

So, I have to assume that he developed this lube for this purpose, and that it is so 'specialized' it doesn't closely resemble anything else.
Since he specifies 20:1 for alloy, that leaves me having to trust his lube engineering to prevent leading...and right now, I can't say that it works. It hasn't in your case for sure.

I applied it to the bullets exactly as his instructions described, and even observed the color change that was supposed to happen. So, I have to believe that it is on there the way it should be...at the right temperature. And, while there isn't any way to 'put more on', Theodore clearly says, "Don't go there." if wondering whether 'more is better'. Maybe soaking a felt wad in it and useing it behind the boolit base as a lube cookie.

I pulled the bullets on those six left-over rounds from yesterday. For simplicity, I increased the compression enough to seat the base band fully in the case, and replaced the bullets. Now, the compression should be somewhat closer to what GOEX typically likes. If I have time, I'll shoot those today to see what, if any, difference that makes in BP fouling...and ease of chambering. Since this would be to check 'gun condition', I may not even put up a target...

[montana_charlie]

Essentially yes, you've noticed the nose ride length isn't as he gave.

I assumed the dimensions in the drawing he posted for me were different because he had modified his thinking after further testing...and after that Magic Bullet article was written.

This assumption was heavily based on his (unfortunately deleted) post where he lauded the .250" nose tip diameter, and slightly longer (1.450 versus 1.400") bullet length.

Am I to understand (now) that you feel the .300" bore ride is the weak spot?

I have no basis to judge the fit in your rifle having no lead throat slug to measure.

If a 'verbal picture' would suffice, here is the description of my chamber from the guy who cut it:

The chamber length should be 2.410", so full length 2.4" cases will clear.
Neck diameter is .483"
Freebore length of .1" with a diameter of .4595"
Throat angle of 1.5 degrees.

This understanding (of mine) was strengthened by the sample bullets sent to me by another shooter. The base band on them is almost half of the overall length. But, he admits to having poor luck with them.

Boolit fit and temper problems

Well, if there is one thing everybody knows, Kelley O. Roos does have a temper...but his problems were case head separations, caused by dipping his bullets differently than Dan recommends.
Seems he was getting lube caked up outside the case mouth, and that raised pressure.

He says he went to a lube cookie only, and had some success. He never mentioned anything about 'leading'...
CM

[45 2.1]

If a 'verbal picture' would suffice, here is the description of my chamber from the guy who cut it:

The chamber length should be 2.410", so full length 2.4" cases will clear.
Neck diameter is .483"
Freebore length of .1" with a diameter of .4595"
Throat angle of 1.5 degrees.

Take an actual impact throat slug a good inch + up from the case mouth, what is said and what is done are different most of the time. The throat and land transition a inch up the bore are very important to know if you want accuracy. You basically want smokeless dimensions for boolit fitting as you say you are wipeing and have a clean throat on each shot.

Well, if there is one thing everybody knows, Kelley O. Roos does have a temper...but his problems were case head separations, caused by dipping his bullets differently than Dan recommends.
Seems he was getting lube caked up outside the case mouth, and that raised pressure.

Don't know him, I tested black and smokeless against each other and found smokeless to be more accurate at range, long range at that. What I read of BP group sizes are not all that impressive.

He says he went to a lube cookie only, and had some success. He never mentioned anything about 'leading'...

If he, Dan and you are all useing the same dip lube, then what gives with the leading? I've not seen a dry (dip) lube work with full BP loads yet, maybe it does, but I want to see it.

[montana_charlie]

Take an actual impact throat slug a good inch + up from the case mouth, what is said and what is done are different most of the time. The throat and land transition a inch up the bore are very important to know if you want accuracy.

Noted.
The chamber was cut by Lee Shaver, a fairly well-known single-shot specialist, and BPCR shooter. The reamer was made for him to his specifications. I'm not a 'name dropper' as a rule, but the chamber description does come with 'credentials' of a sort.

I don't have materials on hand for slugging, but might be able to come up with something which would work...if it becomes a critical requirement.

You basically want smokeless dimensions for boolit fitting as you say you are wipeing and have a clean throat on each shot.

I should be more clear. Some wipe, some blow tube. I would prefer not to wipe, but will if necessary.
As to 'smokeless dimensions', I don't know the difference. I do know that the rifle is intended for BP, and the gunsmith would not have cut a smokeless chamber unless requested.
If you are referring to reduced diameters in the bullet, to allow for fouling, that's different...

I tested black and smokeless against each other and found smokeless to be more accurate at range, long range at that. What I read of BP group sizes are not all that impressive.

I don't know what it would take to impress you. A one MOA group at 500 yards would be (about) five inches wide. Dan's description (in the article) of a group you can 'cover with your palm' sounds pretty impressive to me.
In any case, I won't be using smokeless powder.

If he, Dan and you are all useing the same dip lube, then what gives with the leading? I've not seen a dry (dip) lube work with full BP loads yet, maybe it does, but I want to see it.

I can't answer the 'why' of it...at least not yet.
This is not a dry lube, though. It is meant for BP, so it's only going to have 'natural' ingredients. It has that beeswax feel to it, but the formula is a well-kept secret.
It is applied by melting it at 195°, dipping the bullet base first in a depth of lube which covers up to the front edge of the bore ride, leave it there until the lube touching the lead surface returns to a clear look (it turns white when the cold lead hits it), then wipe the excess off of the base and thumb seat it in the case...still warm. After cooling, the lube ring that was scraped up from the base band (by the case mouth) is gently cracked off and returned to the pot.

So, you have a bullet with a 'wax coated' bore ride, and has (I guess) a trace of lube left on the base band...but not much. The amount of lube on the bullet may nearly equal that found in the grooves on a regular bullet.
I'd have to do some weighing to determine that, for sure...and I don't have any loose ones right now.

Does any of this change your conception of how this works?
CM

[45 2.1]

The chamber was cut by Lee Shaver, a fairly well-known single-shot specialist, and BPCR shooter. The reamer was made for him to his specifications. I'm not a 'name dropper' as a rule, but the chamber description does come with 'credentials' of a sort.

I've talked to him over the phone about his 22 liner and have seen and played with his Soule sight conversions of the cheap Italian staff sights.

I don't have materials on hand for slugging, but might be able to come up with something which would work...if it becomes a critical requirement.

Only if you want it to fit in a wiped throat.

I should be more clear. Some wipe, some blow tube. I would prefer not to wipe, but will if necessary.
As to 'smokeless dimensions', I don't know the difference. I do know that the rifle is intended for BP, and the gunsmith would not have cut a smokeless chamber unless requested.
If you're referring to reduced diameters in the bullet, to allow for fouling, that's different... Yes, reduced nose dimensions to account for BP fouling and use without wipeing.


I don't know what it would take to impress you. A one MOA group at 500 yards would be (about) five inches wide. Dan's description (in the article) of a group you can 'cover with your palm' sounds pretty impressive to me.

1/2 MOA would begin to impress me somewhat.

In any case, I won't be using smokeless powder.

Your choice and an interesting one at that.

I can't answer the 'why' of it...at least not yet.
This is not a dry lube, though. It is meant for BP, so it's only going to have 'natural' ingredients. It has that beeswax feel to it, but the formula is a well-kept secret.
It is applied by melting it at 195°, dipping the bullet base first in a depth of lube which covers up to the front edge of the bore ride, leave it there until the lube touching the lead surface returns to a clear look (it turns white when the cold lead hits it), then wipe the excess off of the base and thumb seat it in the case...still warm. After cooling, the lube ring that was scraped up from the base band (by the case mouth) is gently cracked off and returned to the pot.

Interesting methodology. Have you tried it with anything else to see how well it does or doesn't work?

So, you have a bullet with a 'wax coated' bore ride, and has (I guess) a trace of lube left on the base band...but not much. The amount of lube on the bullet may nearly equal that found in the grooves on a regular bullet.
I'd have to do some weighing to determine that, for sure...and I don't have any loose ones right now.

Does any of this change your conception of how this works?

Your description is basically what I thought. I would like to see a confirmation of what I read though and some success from your efforts.

[montana_charlie]

I don't know what it would take to impress you.

1/2 MOA would begin to impress me somewhat.

Then I am assurredly not your guy. On a good day with my Browning 78 (7mm Rem. Mag.) I might see 1/2 MOA at 100 yards...using a scope...with jacketed handloads. With irons on a Sharps, if I can reliably stay within 1 1/2 MOA, at 300 and beyond, I will be thrilled.

In any case, I won't be using smokeless powder.

Your choice and an interesting one at that.

Unlike 'the annointed' on the Shiloh forum, I don't preach against the use of smokeless in BPCR guns on traditional grounds. But, I did buy the rifle to experience (and overcome) the vagaries of BP loading, and I'll stick with that goal.

It is applied by melting it at 195°.........

Interesting methodology. Have you tried it with anything else to see how well it does or doesn't work?

Nope...
If one gets interested in grooveless bullets by reading the articles of Dan Theodore, he will also be influenced by Dan's insistence that his WL dipping lube is the only thing that makes it possible.

Just as I'll use the manufacturer recommended oil in a new pickup, I have started with the 'approved lube'...which I went to some trouble and expense to acquire.
After a total of nine rounds downrange, I can't claim to have tried anything else.

When I received this lube, I did wonder (because of how it is labeled) if I had the right stuff. Dan assured me that I do.

Does any of this change your conception of how this works?

Your description is basically what I thought. I would like to see a conformation of what I read though and some success from your efforts.

As would I, and (apparently) some others...
CM

[martinibelgian]

MC,
Maybe it just is an irrelevant detal, but the wiping from the muzzle could make a difference - there always is some clearance between rifling and case mouth, and you might be pushing fouling in there, which will accumulate and lead to problems. I do believe you will need to clean from the breech end to keep all fouling out of the throat. A Delrin rod will help you there - I use one for my Martini, and it easily makes the bend.
As to the brush, why not just push a loose brush through the bore with the rod, and have it drop off at the muzzle? Works on my rifle. When wiping with 2 damp patches on a brush after each shot, I can keep on shooting indefinitely. FWIW, I am using a Mini-groove bullet.

[45 2.1]

CM-
Have you read this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7801

[montana_charlie]

CM-
Have you read this thread:

Yup...a long time ago...but I didn't remember where. Glad you found it.
Have also read similar ones at other places, but never figured I would be interested in the method. Things change...

Tried using a three-piece aluminum rod to clean from the breech, but it's not really flexible enough...and it's too dang short!
I have ordered a Delrin rod, but the maker is 'out of stock' on the .45 caliber, right now. Shouldn't be long...
CM

[joeb33050]

How about that cream of wheat? Am I the only one who's eliminated leading with BP and COW?
joe b.

[felix]

No, Joe, you are not a singleton. Don't forget grits! ... felix

[montana_charlie]

Cream of wheat for Yankees, grits for boys in the Deep South...in Texas and the Southwest, it has to be cornmeal or masa harina.
CM