compressing black powder

[montana_charlie]

In my minds eye - I can't see a consistent shot to shot velocity from over compressed powder. If anything it would crush the grains and change the burning rate.

Define 'over compressed', please.
CM

[kokomokid]

I dont care if I crush some powder so long as it shoots consistent. Loads will let you know when to back off. If the .303 was not over compress, I guess maybe heavy compressed.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I compress Express Fg about .380 to .395 after drop tubing in the 2-7/8ths. Loads Show 4-6 fps ES and SD's of 2-1 fps.

Works quite well for me, the past 5 years. Lots of medals and a few records.

KW

[Lead Fred]

The compression die I use keeps the case size the same, and makes them all equal depth in the case. Just dont ram the thing home so hard. Nice even pressure.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3330.html

[trap4570]

Define 'over compressed', please.
CM

I'd define it as compressing the powder to any point that when the bullet is pulled dust is found in the charge. I've always drop tubed or lightly vibrated the powder to let it settle then load the bullet to touch the top of the powder column. However - each to their own as the saying goes. Having consistent velocity from shot to shot is more important to me than having a bit more velocity which may tend to throw fliers from time to time.

[cajun shooter]

trap4570, I don't know your real name or your shooting experience. The two men that you are addressing have many shooting wins and records. KW has national titles at Raton. He compresses his ammo to as much as .395 then I am sure that he has some BP in his cases that is much smaller than it started out. I can tell tell you that Rick has shot some very impressive targets also. My own experience on compressing 45-70 loads to about .325 has shown that the powder is as hard as a hockey puck when I have pulled the bullets of those cases. Those loads will however shoot ragged groups at 100 and 200 yds. Both Rick and Kenny shoot to 1000 and beyond all the time with those loads. Shooting BP will have many different sides and this forum has the men who shoot better than most people will ever try. For years it was thought by many people that static electricity would set off BP like no tomorrow. That is why I own a RCBS and Lyman BP measures. I saw a friend using a Lee measure and read him the riot act about how stupid he was. Come to find out it was me as a very thorough test showed that static electricity will not fire BP. Mike Venturino stated for years that a magnum primer was needed for the loading of BP. We know that to be false and most top shooters not only use a standard LP primer but use a paper wad to slow the brilliancy of that primer.

[montana_charlie]

I'd define it as compressing the powder to any point that when the bullet is pulled dust is found in the charge.

Thanks for the definition.

I've always drop tubed or lightly vibrated the powder to let it settle then load the bullet to touch the top of the powder column.

Do you use Swiss powder?

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Trap4570,

I have had pretty darn good luck with Compressing Goex Express, and other Goex powders. A person that worked for Goex up intill just recently was a 3rd Generation Powder maker and had worked for Dupont before they became Goex. He told me that a certain amount of fines was, reguarded by and had been dertermined by Dupont, needed in the powder to have a consistant Burn rate. He also was the one that came up with and wanted to make Goex Express.

As is well known, many original 45-70 loads from the old days if found and tore down show a solid plug of powder in the case from top to bottom.

As I stated in my 45-110, I compress after a slow pour and through a drop tube, about .380 to .385 on avg with as much as .395.

Scores at 800 yards are often even with PP loads in the mid 90's in NRA Target rifle. I have won many many gold medals at national level matches with that ammount of compression. Scores at 900 and 1000 also have netted me many awards. Including Regional and National Championship titles.

This same amount of compression has with PP loads, yielded a 1.336 inch group in the 5@200 match at Raton NM, and is the current world Record for PP at 200 in this match.

There is a lot of ways, to go about loading BP, no one person's is the best way or only way.

In your minds eye, does a ES of 4-6 Fps and SD's of 1-2 Fps, off A Oheler Chronograph sound worth while, as that is what the above load attains on a very regular basis. Exceptional accuracy has been attained with such loads, even running 5 consecitive hits on a 15x8 ft target at 1 Mile.

KW
The Lunger

[kokomokid]

KW , Do you have any more info on fines improving burn rate? I shoot swiss 1 1/2 and you dont find many fines in it unless you make them. At my .035" to.050" compression I dont crush much powder either. I know most people say not to load between .020" and .200" compression but if it works?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I load swiss 1 1/2 with .225 compression in the 38-50 same what I used in the lube tests a while back refer too the pictures, for accuracey levels.

KW
The Lunger

[boommer]

I think that you guys looking for magical compression rate should get a chrony and use it and do a little trigger time. Nobody can tell you how much compression you need. What works for rifle,put that round in another chances are it will not perform the same. Yes some powders like more comp then others, but exactly how much? any component you change or if you size or slip fit the bullets will change your velocity spread.

Now your using one brand of powder, let's say Goex most people say it likes more comp so you would take 15 cases and load 5 of each with different compression .200 .250 and .300 seat all the bullets the same cartridge length, you will have to ad about 5 to 7 grs of powder by volume each time you increase your compression .100 in a 45 cal case.
Cases should be fired formed to your chamber or it will change volume in your cases unless you re size each time. Cartridge length,bullet set to max length for chamber.
Now shoot over Chrony and shoot a group of 5 clean the bore then next 5 clean the bore next five disregard the fouling shot round numbers. I don't blow tube because that's a variable.
now the group with least spread, let's say .300 has the smallest spread(15-30fps) load 5 more at .275/.325/.350 and do it again. NOW IF YOU FIND yourself 10-15 fps spread your close.

Now if I'm slip fitting the bullets, I'll neck size them and see what happens with 5 rounds and 5 with paper over the flash hole and maybe 5 with a different primers or if .325 compression was my best maybe try .340 or .315 . but now you are a the point you can start tweaking

The Chrony is a tool that you need if you want get serious about load development. Do you have to have one to get a rifle to shoot well NO but makes life easier and your not reliant what others have said. Hundred bucks and you'll know whats going on with that load.

Want to know about powder compression Buy a Chrony..

[trap4570]

trap4570, I don't know your real name or your shooting experience. The two men that you are addressing have many shooting wins and records.
I'm making no attempt to tarnish the names or reputations of anyone who uses any practice that works and wins matches. I am only expressing my opinion from my experience. While max velocity is desired at long range - consistent velocity (In my minds eye) would seem paramount for consistent accurate hits on any target. Possibly I should have stated that using two hands on a press to seat a bullet would be deemed as possibly excessive. As with all things in the realm of accuracy trial and error is the learning curve for us all. I have never tried the swiss powder, but I would like to. I have read some fine reports on that powder. I am presently shooting my way through the left over supply of Hodgdon powder I purchased back in the 70's.

[montana_charlie]

I am presently shooting my way through the left over supply of Hodgdon powder I purchased back in the 70's.

Oh, I see. Well, when you get to situation where you want to try some black powder, be sure to try compressing some of your loads. But use a compression die...not the bullet.

Meanwhile, you are probably better off not compressing the propellant you are using now.

CM

[Don McDowell]

MC he may be talking about Hogdons Black Powder, which was Curtis and Harvey imported and packed in Hogdon labeled cans.

[trap4570]

No - I usually allow the powder to settle in the case through either vibration or drop tube. The bullet is seated to (for a better lack of proper term) restrict all air space. Through the chrony, I'm able to keep approx 18 fps variation from shot to shot depending on the weather for some reason. It may be the humidity when loaded - I don't know. At the time of purchase it was the only powder available and I kept 50 lbs in a magazine for customer sales. Newer powders came along and the stuff I had just wouldn't sell - so I've been shooting it up and passing it to friends. Down to 5 lbs of 2f . Yes it is the Scottish powder and it does require to be turned from time to time.

[Hednign]

The heavy compression goes worldwide. We do it over here in Norway to. My best loads for the Trapdoor, 45-70 is compressed in the .395" area. Iv compressed even more, and my rifle shoots steady patterns. The powder I use is Swiss no 4. Sometimes Wano 2P. I run the powder through a 3 feet long tube before compressing. I dont think there is any aid in having such a long drop tube, but I just didnt care to cut it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

trap4570,

IF you think 18 Fps from shot to shot ES is good, you might want to try compression, I do not know what your meaning is about using two hands to seat a bullet?

I compress the powder with a special stem that fits in my Expander die.

My loads hold about a half of a MOA of vertical at even 1000 yards, with .380 to .395 compression.

KW
The Lunger

[winchester94]

For what it's worth, Pat Wolf sells a brass compression plug that fits Lee dies. All of $4.50 + shipping. she also sells a .459 expansion plug for the same price.

[Don McDowell]

I resize my cases, so I keep an extra Lyman M die to use as a compression die, set it to the depth I need to seat grease groove bullets.

[bigted]

wow this took on some legs huh? origanally i wanted to know if a fella could "over compress" black powder. this was answered to my satasfaction back on the first page. since then it has morfed into quite a post...i think this is great.......keep it going as im also learning from all the posts that are added.

thanks everybody...keep em coming.