Reasons for poor accuracy with boolits

[ItZaLLgooD]

I started casting about 1 year ago because of the price/availability of factory ammunition. I was happy if they were loadable boolits that didn't lead up the gun. Now I that I am past that, I'm noticing I don't get the same accuracy as with my cast projectiles.

Load #1: 5.2 grains Unique / Lee TL-452-230_2R lubed with 45-45-10.
Load #2: 7.0 grains Power Pistol / 230gr XTP

At 15 yards off-hand - shooting at a 3 in circle, only 1 round in the circle with load #1. The rest MIGHT have fit in a 10 inch circle, all but 1 low enough to miss the target circle.

Same set -up for load #2. 5 rounds in the circle, the other 3 missed by less than an inch.

I am no marksman but, 2 other people with the same distance/target/gun with similar results.

Where do I start??

[Char-Gar]

You can start by telling us what firearms you are using..rifle, pistol or what? I suspect it is a 45 auto from the bullets, but that is just guess work.

[Bass Ackward]

Very first thing to do is learn to compare apples to apples.

You have two equal weight bullets. First use the Unique load with the XTP and see what you get. Then run the cast up to the 7.0 grains of PP and see what happens. This is going to give you invaluable direction to go.

Maybe you just aren't stabilizing at the lower velocity. Until you know .........................

[jblee10]

Why not try the same powder charge behind each bullet? If it's a 45 acp, use an alloy at least as hard as water dropped wheel weights. That works fine in my XD. If you need to raise the point of impact with the cast bullets, slow them down a little.

[runfiverun]

up the unique load some, i am surprised it actually functions the firearm.
i use 7 grs in the acp.
and some guns plain refuse to shoot the t/l design, the 9mm version is the worst offender ever.
just work the load upwards.

[noylj]

You have to work up loads for both bullets using the same powders. All that you have shown is that the gun preferred an XTP/Power Pistol/specific charge weight better than a cast bullet/Unique/specific charge weight. One assumes they were at least fired in the same gun?
Some other areas to look at?
Are you sizing your cast bullets? That can hurt accuracy. Try as-cast.
Have you slugged your barrel, so you know what minimum bullet diameter you need?
Did you thoroughly clean the barrel between cast bullets and jacketed bullets?

[ItZaLLgooD]

Sorry about that. 45ACP in a Kimber 1911 and Taurus 1911. Both are 5"ers. Both shoot a similar pattern.

Boolits are air cooled wheel weights. Tumbled with LLA/JPW.

i use 7 grs in the acp.

The Alliant website says that with a 230 gr LRN that 5.8 gr Unique is max but I just looked at my Lyman manual and it says 7.3 gr. Why the big difference? Who should I trust when i get conflicting data?

I got the Power Pistol to run the J-words at higher velocity and didn't think much about accuracy so I never tried it with the lead. I will try it out.

I will also bump up the charge of Unique to see what I get. I would have never guessed that powder would make that big of difference in the group.

I also have some Titegroup to try. The name of it implies that my groups should shrink.

[prs]

I know little of 45ACP lore, but one thing you can do when working-up a load or judging accuracy is to use a proper pistol rest and/or bags. Reduce the human factoras much as possible.

prs

[ItZaLLgooD]

One assumes they were at least fired in the same gun?

Yes

Are you sizing your cast bullets?

Yes, .452 with the Lee push through sizer. As cast I had some trouble with reliable chambering.

Have you slugged your barrel,

No

Did you thoroughly clean the barrel between cast bullets and jacketed bullets?

No. I went back and forth, a magazine full at a time. My brother got similar result with his Kimber and eyes.

[gray wolf]

good advise so far,
Well the op has us playing a little guessing game but it ain't that hard to figure out.
I say it's a 45 acp also-------------NOW-----------let me say, one more time-.

I just don't understand how some of you guy's test loads for your pistols.
I don't have my nomax suite on so easy on the flames, this is not for the pros.
But I think it can help some others trying to get good accuracy and come up with a good load.
Yes slug your barrel and or throats and get the correct size bullet, choose a good lube. Do a little research and find a powder that has a good track record for your cartridge. Lets say it's tite group,
and the Minimum and max are 4.8 to 5.4 for 200 Gr. LSWC.
Load 10 rounds each of 4.7-- 4.8--4.9--5.00--5.1 yes I said that right,
start a 1/10 under Min. and stop for now a little under max.
Use your barrel as a case Gage for a seating dept to get your OAL.
The correct OAL should let the bullet fall into your barrel and be even or just a hair below the barrel hood. Your bullet is head spacing on the bullet because if you do it right the bullet is contacting the rifing lead. This will give proper and consistent primer strike as the bullet will be in good contact with the breach face.
Do not over crimp the 45 round, just enough to remove the neck flare.
You wont gain anything by over crimping here.
So now we take all our little sample rounds and keep them separated.
At the range use your sand bag, the one you made out of some old pant legs and tied off with some string. Put a 2'' target out at least 10 yards and shoot the lowest charge first while using the sand bag as a rest, get that pistol firmly into the bag. Shoot all ten rounds--this will allow for any bad shots on your part and still give you enough to see a group. Mark the target so when you get home you can study it. Do the same with the rest of the targets. I can do this testing with
at least 6 targets on one 8X11 sheet of paper. You will also after a while.
Shoot each shot like it was the only one you had, GOOD site picture and GOOD trigger control is very important here. At this stage of the testing forget about shooting off hand. Many new shooters are not good at it anyway. It takes practice. ( please-- I hope no one is getting insulted here with the basics )
If you don't screw up the shooting you should have some targets with one hole
raged groups, and your testing should have told you the powder charge your pistol likes.
Let me say some times a pistol with fixed sights will be a little off POA shooting from a sand bag. Don't let it bother you at this time. What you did is just proved your best load. You can always return to the bag at any time you think your shooting is a little off. the sand bag will reconfirm if it is you or the pistol.
So now you stand up and shoot free hand at 10 yards and shoot 4 or 5 inch groups with the load that shot 1'' off the bag. WHO YOU GOING TO BLAME EH.
Once you have your load you can work on your shooting.
This may be to basic for some but for a person trying to work up a load and develop his/her shooting I think IMHO it is a good way to remove any variables
and get a good idea of whats going on.
Copper, lead--copper lead--copper lead UM not good little Cricket clean befor each.
Hope it didn't bore anyone.


Sam

[35remington]

Let me caution you about a few things.

First, don't use the Lyman data for 7.3 grains of Unique. This would be past Plus P pressures with this bullet, and I cast the very same one. Lyman's data is dated and will give far higher velocity than they state with the Lee bullet substituted. For that matter it is not advisable with the bullet they list it with.....the 452374. I know that data you're quoting by memory as it's been in the 45th, 46th, 47th, 48th and 49th editions.

Lyman has been remiss in not correcting it. It's sadly and near dangerously dated by now.

Six grains Unique will attain near standard ball velocity with the 230-2R with my own chronographed results, and 6.5 grains should be considered the maximum for standard pressures. I would not exceed the 6.5 grain charge; modern data reflects this.

Forget 7.3 grains! Period! For that matter, don't use anything above the 6.5 grains I just mentioned. Such a charge obtains well over 920 fps with the 230-2R in a five inch 1911, and that's well past standard velocity and more near Plus P. 7.3 grains would be quite excessive and well past Plus P.

In advising tenth grain increments for working up pistol charges, it is well to remember you're measuring with a micrometer and cutting with an axe, the axe being our 1911 pistol and the humble tester's abilities. It is likely that given the normal variation in metered charges and how an automatic pistol functions with a barrel/slide/frame that is potentially locking up slightly differently for every shot, a pistol round such as the 45 ACP is not "tenth grain sensitive" but rather "charge range sensitive." This applies to weighed charges as well.

Nor is your standard bushing/slide/barrel fit sensitive in that tenth grain manner, save in finding the range of charges where lockup of the barrel/slide/frame will occur repeatably every time and help accuracy. An automatic pistol is a strange thing, accuracywise, as the most accurate loads somehow make the gun return to battery the same way every time.

Certainly there is a range of powder charges where the pistol may shoot better, but I could deliberately vary those charges a tenth grain either way and no grouping difference will show up on target given standard pistols and abilities. Or even a Ransom rest. Positing that 5.5 grains Unique will give one hole groups while 5.4 or 5.6 grains will group much worse will not bear out in actual testing.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Thanks for all of the advise. I am not looking for ragged hole accuracy. I plan on using these boolits for some local USPSA matches and general plinking for my son and me.

I have a modest reloading set-up that doesn't allow for .1 grain adjustments.(Lee Autodisk powder measure). No disrespect to Gray wolf, I understand my testing was limited but I usually don't have that kind of time. Someday, but not anytime soon. I will start simple and see what happens. Thanks

[gray wolf]

No problem here,
enjoy what you do and be safe. We have to do with what we have.

[243winxb]

Increase you powder charge from 5.2 grains Unique a little at a time till you get accuracy.

[cajun shooter]

I think I would change to a different lube such as White Label BAC and see what happens. Then try Carnuba Red if the BAC does not give good enough results.

[prs]

gray wolf; a most excellent reply! We all need reminders.

ItZaLLgooD; I use that same model powder measure for high volume production runs in progressive presses. When working-up small lots of test ammo, I use the Lee Dippers, a card, and a powder trickler, along with a powder scale. Once I settle on the weight of my "sweet" charge, I go back to the Pro Auto Disk and select the volumetric cavity that delivers that charge in actual production with half to 3/4 hopper full of the selected propellant. You have to check the charges during typical cycles of the reloading press to get representative results of production rounds. If the sweet charge falls in between volumetric sizes you have two choices with the Pro Auto measure IF you really do want to pin-point that charge. You can take a cavity that is slightly low RE the delivered charge and polish it up in size just a tad, or you can use the Lee micrometer accessory for that scale.

Unique is not a meter "friendly" powder, but I still get very consistent charges with it. Like 35Remmington pointed-out, you do not necessarily have to pin-point the perfect charge. In your testing, you will hopefully find that the groups typically remain reasonably tight within a range of those you tested. If you do not have a scale, you have a good thing for Santa to bring ya. I have several and although some will poo-poo the thought of it, the inexpensive Lee scale is as good as any for typical powder charges if properly placed and calibrated to "0" or even by try weight. If you have no trickler and don't want one, use an index card bent into a "V" and your finger to tap the powder over the end edge a flake or two at a time.

prs

[dverna]

Show us a picture of your bullets before lubing. Don't pick the pretty ones. Grab 4 or 5 at random.

Weigh 20 of them and find the Extreme Spread and SD (Standard Deviation): Here is data from two decent commercial cast bullets and a "cheap" Jacketed bullet

Dardas MasterCast Zero
,45 200 gr SWC .45 -200 gr 230 gr FMC
Avg 198.8 200.1 229.5
Min 198.0 199.3 229.1
Max 199.7 201.0 229.7
Spread 1.7 1.7 0.6
S.D. 0.49 0.53 0.15

If your bullets vary wildly, they will not shoot very well. The groups (patterns?) you are getting are not due to the load unless you are seeing key-holing. At 15 yards, any load that is fast enough to stabilize the bullet will shoot into a 3" circle. The bullets are likely your problem.

After posting I see the formatting of the data did not "take". What is shows is that "good" commercial cast bullets vary by less than 2 grains. Look for an extreme spread no worse than 3 gr. on your 20 bullets. FORGET about 1/10th grain powder increments. It is a freaking pistol load!!!!

Don Verna

[mdi]

I know little of 45ACP lore, but one thing you can do when working-up a load or judging accuracy is to use a proper pistol rest and/or bags. Reduce the human factoras much as possible.

prs

Agreed. You need to know how the gun shoots and not how good a shot you are. Bags, or a rest...

[GRUMPA]

I used to have the same issue at first with my "x" brand type 1911's and I always like as stated already worked up my loads. Accuracy so-so but in my own personal case I am the only guy I know that can sit on a piece of coal and a week later produce a diamond. I was using brass of so many makes it isn't funny. Some brass is thicker than others and with the slightly oversized cast as with jacketed stuff .001 difference of the case mouth itself is all thats needed to mess things up. I figured that out later than sooner but it sure helped me out.

[ItZaLLgooD]

I am using mixed head stamp brass. Is it possible to break all of the rules at once?