Shooting cast at 2700+ fps

[-06]

My #1 deer rifle gets a couple to sight in and one per deer. After season it get cleaned and stored till next year. The 700,M1A, and others get used and played with. I no longer burn hundreds daily and am content to just put a few into the black and go home.

[BruceB]

It's long been my belief and practice to pretend that IF I decide to hunt with a cast bullet, I am (in effect) stepping back to the closing days of the blackpowder era

If I need raw power, it's vailable by using a bigger rifle/bullet combination If I'm hunting smaller game, .30-30 trajectories suit me just fine out to 200 yards.....which just happens to be my self-imposed range limit anyway, barring unusual circumstances.

At 2000+ fps, which isn't difficult to achieve with reasonable accuracy, my .416 Rigby and its 365-grain cast bullet is perfectly capable of humane, reliable kills on anything that ambles around this continent At the same time, the load isn't really uncomfortable. 3" high at 100. 3" low at 200, and I have a very practical 200-yard big-game outfit. It groups ten rounds of the hunting load into an inch at 100 (repeatably).

The fastest I've driven the RCBS .416 bullet is 2600 fps. The accuracy was still pretty decent and no leading appeared. It was VERY miserable on the back end, though.

I'd rather hunt with a 300-grain softpointed .338, at 2000 fps, than with a 180-grain .30 hopped-up to 2700. I would also expect much better bullet integrity after impact. Our job should be to create the best possible load we can, with clean killing as the main priority. 2000 fps with a 200-yard max range suits me just fine.

[geargnasher]

Waksup--your byline says: ..."these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid".... What is he talking about?

Not to discourage you from starting down the path, but the reality is if gas checks are new to you there is a long road to be traveled before getting what you want with cast boolits from your rifles.

Am going to have to "rethunk" some things and do some studying. Thanks for all the info. Have a bud who rebuilds printing presses-bet he can get me some linotype.

If someone gave you the impression you could just get a Lee mould, saucepan, hotplate, old spoon and some liquid Alox and start turning wheel weights into perfect barn-burners just like you do with jacketed stuff they did you a disservice. I encourage you to try this if you have the interest, lots of good folks here and good books to help you along, but shooting cast boolits is more of a hobby unto itself than a means to another end.

LOL, like that term "manufacturing ammunition". I got into reloading to insure my ammo supply in the times to come. With ample components one should be able to "manufacture" what is needed for all uses.

Casting your own might be for you, although making accurate cast boolit ammo is more akin to "Ammunition crafting". Like many here say it doesn't save you money, but it allows you to shoot about 5-10 times more for the same money!

My #1 deer rifle gets a couple to sight in and one per deer. After season it get cleaned and stored till next year. The 700,M1A, and others get used and played with. I no longer burn hundreds daily and am content to just put a few into the black and go home.

J-words work best for that.

Gear

[ReloaderEd]

It can be done using Linotype metal which is right at 22 brinell hardness and when the bullets come out of the mold quench them in water if you want but its not really necessary.
A gas checked bullet is a must and the barrel should not be pitted but smoot and shinny lands and grooves. The case mouths should be belled out to assure the bullet is not scrapped when seated. Put a tuff of dacron filler on top of the powder charge, seat and crimp the bullet. The bullet should just be shy of touching the lands and grooves in the barrel. I run cast 150's at 2800 fps in my Mi Garand with no leading or problems with the dacron filler. they kill a deer easily. Be Safe

[dualsport]

OK Ed. That's what I was looking for. "I did this and this and this is what happened". I am interested in your M1 load, more details? I have a very nice Garand with a smooth near new condition barrel, would like to experiment more with high velocity cbs in it or my other 30-06, a CZ 550 with a 12" twist. So far the upper end stuff that has shot well have been copies of the 'Bob S. load', still a long ways from 2800 fps. I'm not concerned with hunting with these loads, just paper or silhouettes. No particular good reason, just for the heck of it thing.

[mpmarty]

Velocity alone is not the answer. Shouldn't even be the question. I shoot 30 cal stuff on paper but when hunting I use the 45/70 and anything even near 2000 fps is out of the question. My 350 gr RD boolits drop game like magic at 1650fps out to 200 yards and a bit more. Learn to read your rifle and feed it what it likes.

[dualsport]

Hunting with cbs is a different animal than just experimenting with higher velocities for it's own sake. Getting good results, accuracy, no leading with fast stuff just adds another area to experiment in and have fun. No harm in that, right? Adding speed to the mix creates a new challenge, I like that. When I have hunted with cbs it's been the 45-70, drops them right there. I am always trying to bump up cb .22 loads, for flatter trajectory on ground squirrels with a Hornet or .223.

[Bret4207]

I was gonna kind of let this one go by, but the last 2 posts are making such good old fashioned common sense that I feel obliged to chime in. The OP is making a mistake IMO equating cast with jacketed, 2 different animals. If the idea of having your needs met by a simple lead alloy projectile at 1800, 2K or 2200 fps doens't tickle you, then cast just might not be your bag.

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmmmm....seems tyhis question of HV (2700 fps in this case) has been asked numerous times (okay, a lot of times) before. 2700 fps out of the '06 using cast bullets is relatively easy to do, just as easy to do with jacketed bullets. The problem is doing it with consistent and useable accuracy. That is easy with jacketed bullets but very, very difficult with cast bullets.

The 12" twist will be the best chance upwards of 2400 fps but beyond that consistent accuracy of 2 moa or less out through 300 + yards will be more approachable with a 14" twist barrel. Many want to discount the adverse affect of high RPM but it is very real, especially with cast bullets at HV/RPM. Those adverse affects are what must be overcome. It will take a cast bullet with certain design features, just any cast design will not cut it. The alloy must be strong yet ductile/maleable. Slow burning powders must be used, many times with appropriate fillers. You must also be somewhat anal about your casting/loading techniques. Linotype is not good alloy for a big game hunting bullet but is a very good componant to start with. I mix mine with 20 or 30% lead for a very useable yet maleable alloy at 2200 -2600+ fps.

Testing with groups at 50 yards will show little. Testing at 100 yards is prefereable with confirmation of linear expansion of the groups at 200 and/or 300 yards. Groups of 3 shots provide little information, groups of 5 shots only a little more and it is best to test with 10 shot groups and then use at least 3 ten shot groups for confimation of repeatable and consistent accuracy at 100 and longer ranges. A good chronograph is also a must to really tell if you are getting the velocities and consistencies you desire. It can also show you, if you know what to look for, when certain componants are not performing well internally and terminally (ballistically speaking).

I shoot consistent 10 shot groups of 1.4 - 1.5moa average at 2600+ fps with a .308W out to 300 yards. The details are in other threads so a search will provide lots of usefull information. If you intend to hunt with the '06 and you've a rifle with a 10" twist barrel (I've been doing that for many years) then you can expect dependable and consistent hunting accuracy up through 2200 fps using some special techniques with good FP bullets of alloys that expand reliably over 200 or so yards. Such loads are reliable killers on deer size game. If you want to hunt larger game then a larger caliber is recommended by me and others here. The larger calibers usually have 12 or 14" twist barrels or slower and allow vary good accuracy with cast up through 2400+ fps. Recoil can become abusive with the larger/heavier bullets though as mentioned by BruceB.

The road to HV and accurate cast bullet loads in a 10" twist '06 can be fraught with lots of frustration. Give it a try if you must and don't hesitate to seek advice here.

Larry Gibson

[-06]

Again, thanks for the input gents. I do not hesitate to shoot 400 yds at a deer so I think I will stay with my 168 gn BTHP loads and save my casts for lower velocities. I have plenty of WWs and pure Pb so will just keep on pouring for other things.

[waksupi]

Why are you shooting at game at 400 yards? A bit of wind, or a step by the animal, and it is missed, or wounded.

[MtGun44]

Linotype is a brittle alloy and when used for hunting, not only will not expand, but will
shatter on a heavy bone.

If you want to hunt with cast, you need a caliber that will do what you need in the speed
ranges which are relatively easily attainable. If you want to do modern high velocity, long
range hunting, cast is not appropriate, which is why jacketed bullets were invented and
developed to the high technical art that they have achieved.

If you enjoy tinkering, saving some money and maybe turning back the clock to a simpler
and slower time while shooting and hunting, you may want to take up the boolit hobby.

Pistols are pretty easy, rifles up to 1800 fps are pretty easy too. It get quickly much harder
to get accuracy above those levels, and many of the things that do deliver accuracy are not
very compatible with the desired impact on an animal. Careful casting with two different
alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner.

It sounds like your needs are firmly in the jacketed or monolithic copper alloy bullet camp.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Linotype is a brittle alloy and when used for hunting, not only will not expand, but will
shatter on a heavy bone.

If you want to hunt with cast, you need a caliber that will do what you need in the speed
ranges which are relatively easily attainable. If you want to do modern high velocity, long
range hunting, cast is not appropriate, which is why jacketed bullets were invented and
developed to the high technical art that they have achieved.

If you enjoy tinkering, saving some money and maybe turning back the clock to a simpler
and slower time while shooting and hunting, you may want to take up the boolit hobby.

Pistols are pretty easy, rifles up to 1800 fps are pretty easy too. It get quickly much harder
to get accuracy above those levels, and many of the things that do deliver accuracy are not
very compatible with the desired impact on an animal.
A hearty +1 on all of that for sure.

Careful casting with two different alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner. So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps. That's velocity downrange, not at the muzzle, something often overlooked. I doubt the softnose stuff could survive launch when pushed to the 2400 fps MV range without slumping, although I've never tried it to see.

It sounds like your needs are firmly in the jacketed or monolithic copper alloy bullet camp. And the .300 Winchester Magnum camp, too, with 400 yard shots.

Bill

Gear.

[Suo Gan]

Hmmmmm....seems tyhis question of HV (2700 fps in this case) has been asked numerous times (okay, a lot of times) before. 2700 fps out of the '06 using cast bullets is relatively easy to do, just as easy to do with jacketed bullets. The problem is doing it with consistent and useable accuracy. That is easy with jacketed bullets but very, very difficult with cast bullets.

The 12" twist will be the best chance upwards of 2400 fps but beyond that consistent accuracy of 2 moa or less out through 300 + yards will be more approachable with a 14" twist barrel. Many want to discount the adverse affect of high RPM but it is very real, especially with cast bullets at HV/RPM. Those adverse affects are what must be overcome. It will take a cast bullet with certain design features, just any cast design will not cut it. The alloy must be strong yet ductile/maleable. Slow burning powders must be used, many times with appropriate fillers. You must also be somewhat anal about your casting/loading techniques. Linotype is not good alloy for a big game hunting bullet but is a very good componant to start with. I mix mine with 20 or 30% lead for a very useable yet maleable alloy at 2200 -2600+ fps.

Testing with groups at 50 yards will show little. Testing at 100 yards is prefereable with confirmation of linear expansion of the groups at 200 and/or 300 yards. Groups of 3 shots provide little information, groups of 5 shots only a little more and it is best to test with 10 shot groups and then use at least 3 ten shot groups for confimation of repeatable and consistent accuracy at 100 and longer ranges. A good chronograph is also a must to really tell if you are getting the velocities and consistencies you desire. It can also show you, if you know what to look for, when certain componants are not performing well internally and terminally (ballistically speaking).

I shoot consistent 10 shot groups of 1.4 - 1.5moa average at 2600+ fps with a .308W out to 300 yards. The details are in other threads so a search will provide lots of usefull information. If you intend to hunt with the '06 and you've a rifle with a 10" twist barrel (I've been doing that for many years) then you can expect dependable and consistent hunting accuracy up through 2200 fps using some special techniques with good FP bullets of alloys that expand reliably over 200 or so yards. Such loads are reliable killers on deer size game. If you want to hunt larger game then a larger caliber is recommended by me and others here. The larger calibers usually have 12 or 14" twist barrels or slower and allow vary good accuracy with cast up through 2400+ fps. Recoil can become abusive with the larger/heavier bullets though as mentioned by BruceB.

The road to HV and accurate cast bullet loads in a 10" twist '06 can be fraught with lots of frustration. Give it a try if you must and don't hesitate to seek advice here.

Larry Gibson

All that for free Larry? Way better than anything I just read in Fauxloader Journal. Nicely written.

[Bret4207]

Again, thanks for the input gents. I do not hesitate to shoot 400 yds at a deer so I think I will stay with my 168 gn BTHP loads and save my casts for lower velocities. I have plenty of WWs and pure Pb so will just keep on pouring for other things.

Target bullets not designed for game and Hail Mary shots? Sorry sir, you and I subscribe to 2 different theories on hunting.

[Lloyd Smale]

i know its not 2700 fps but ive pushed 120 grain flat nosed bullets out of molds for 32 revolvers to 2500 fps out of a 3030 i casted them out of 5050 ww/lyno lubed and sized them to 309 and put a coating of tumble lube on them to boot. I shot some 2 inch 100 yard groups out of my contender carbine. I dont remember the load and lost all my old load data in a fire. I beleive though i was using re7 to do it. I never killed anything with it as my old man layed claim to that gun not long after i was fooling with it. It sure did smack the heck out of rocks though. Some day id like to kill a deer with that load. Id bet it would put a hurt on one.

[Von Gruff]

Geargnasher wrote,
Careful casting with two different alloys has been done and works well, but is an advanced art for the beginner. So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps. That's velocity downrange, not at the muzzle, something often overlooked. I doubt the softnose stuff could survive launch when pushed to the 2400 fps MV range without slumping, although I've never tried it to see.

I have , as posted elsewhere, a softnosed 160gn (7x57) boolit (65gn 50/50 ww/pb nose - lino shank) at 2415fps that has proved to be a good game killer (out to 185yds so far), so dont believe there is slump problem, at least not any that costs hunting accuracy or on-in-through animal effectiveness.

Von Gruff.

[geargnasher]

Good to know, VG. When I think of soft nosed, I think of WW boolits and Pure Pb nose, which I don't think will fare as well as yours.

Gear

[HangFireW8]

So does 2%Sn/3%Sb/96Pb with a touch of arsenic heat-treated and impacting the future dinner at at least 2k fps.

101%? That's nothing. You should see what my sports-caster approved 110% alloys can do!

-HF

[w30wcf]

This was a project I haven't had the chance to get back to yet. Last year I decided to make some Lee "Soup Can" bullets from Lino and push them to a velocity beyond what I had in the past.

Discounting the fouling shot the group was better than I expected....and from a levergun at that. I need to load up some more and try them at 100 yards. I'll have to add that to the 2011 project list ..............



w30wcf