Inline question

[waksupi]

I have a guy trying to make an Omega inline shoot. .45 cal, using 150 gr.fff 777, and an Extended Range Sabot, 180 gr.
"Group" is around a foot. Sabots are not coming off the bullet about half the time. Naturally, this has to be contributing to the inaccuracy.
My gut feeling is he is using too much powder, first off. And looking at the bullet enclosed in the sabot, it appears to be one of the most poorly designed bullets I have seen.
My suggestion to him of course, was to find a real ML.
Anyone have any experience with these things?

[StarMetal]

Geez Ric,

150 grs That is a heck of alot of powder for a 45 cal muzzleloader. Shucks tell him to cut way back like try 100 see what happens.

Joe

[JDL]

It always amazes me what modern hunters think is necessary for a powder charge! Triple 7 is a very hot powder! I have found that 80 grains will produce almost a hundred fps more velocity (1649) than 100 grains of Goex black(1560), when used in my inline .50 cal.
Have you found a sabot to examine? My guess is the base will be terribly deformed with this much pressure. Have him try some CVA power belts with about 70-90 grains and he will likely find a good load. -JDL

P.S. You might inform him that the huge buff heards were wiped out using only 70-90 grains of black powder.

[RugerFan]

I agree with JDL. Tell him to back off the powder. You can use 10% less 777 and get the same result as Pyrodex. I used to use two 50 gn 777 pellets in my .50 cal CVA inline with a Lyman 429244 in a Harvestor sabot. Very good accuracy and penetration. I took several deer and hogs with this combination. (Harvestor sabots are available from Cabelas)

[44man]

Hey, c'mon guys! These guys read all the crappola put out and need 300 mag velocities or the gun won't kill. None of them have ever used a flinter or percussion side lock with a round ball and think they are anemic. Handgun bullets from a big bore muzzle loader! What a farce. The whole question is, can the man hunt, or does he have to be 200 yd's from a deer? Damn, I have to make my bow shoot 2000 fps or deer are safe! Can't hit them at 20 yd's because the arrow drops too much.
Balls just roll out of my Hawkin and only work if I drop it on the deer's head. Every one wants things easier instead of enjoying the woods and the hunt. Maybe we ought to make traps for the deer so nimrods can beat them with clubs. But then some would want 100 foot long clubs.
Buy a REAL gun and find out there is more to life then killing everything you see. Stop looking at pictures of the trophy hunters, shoot a nice doe for the freezer.

[versifier]

Have him try 50-80gr of Pyrodex or 777. He is using twice the charge he needs. It also sounds like the bullet/sabot combination is a big part of the problem, and he should be encouraged to try several different kinds. T/C makes unfilled sabots the you can stuff with your own boolits if you aren't impressed with what they're selling. Sometimes you have to size them for ease of loading. A nice, soft SWC or HP ought to work just fine. The Omega's twist rate will probably not stabilize a rb, but that doesn't mean you can't try it - my rb barrel shoots slugs pretty well. MaxiBalls and MaxiHunters should be tested in it, too. Even if he gets a real m/l, we all know he's still not going to be hitting anything consistantly (let alone being sure of killing it cleanly) at much beyond 100yds, and I'm sure you've already made that clear to him. But, as far as getting the groups down to a "minute of deer" size, that is doable with a little restraint and some patience. I don't think it will be a tack driver even with its favorite load (whatever that may turn out to be). 6"-5shots@100 is a reasonable expectation, 3" is damned good, and anything smaller you hit the lottery.

[44man]

Everyone that comes over here to shoot an inline (Heaven forbid!) finds that Power Belts are the best.
I have killed so many deer with a .45 flinter, .50 an .54 with round balls, that you will have to tie me up, beat me and take away my booze to make me get an inline, unless it is an original.
P.S., I have shot over 355 deer, over 220 of those with bows and I don't know how many with revolvers. Lost track a while back. Now I cut, wrapped and froze all of those so if you have something to gripe about, compare before you complain.

[StarMetal]

Personally I think he should try the TC Maxi-Ball's . Although my muzzleloader is a 50 cal, I use Maxi-balls and Versifier I reckon I've hit the lottery.

Joe

[waksupi]

Keep going, guys. Maybe I can show him this, and convince him of the errors of his ways.

[KCSO]

Waksupi
I have some excellent lamp stand designs that really look good on an inline and last week I sold one for enough for a good barrel for a flint Hawken. I can honestly tell you that I have three brand new barrels for CVA inlines and I am using them for making sizing dies. I would rather subsist on a diet of buffalo dung and elephant whiz than to shoot an inline.

No I'll take that back I did shoot an original inline bb gun made in the 1870's, but that had a dummy lock and at least looked like a real muzzleloader.

[crazy mark]

150 gr of powder. I use 60-80 grs in my 45 cal caplocks and 70-90 grs in my 50 cal caplocks. Why doesn't he just buy the Savage in-line that uses regular powder and have at it. Here in Oregon you can't use pellets or sabots in ML season. Most in-lines are a no no also. Has to have open ignition. I like the mystery of if the rifle will go off after you have been out in the wet weather. Mark

[versifier]

There's always the chance that he will get into m/l's, and soon enough be frustrated at the limitations of what he has. If his head is screwed on correctly, he'll soon be coming to you with questions about real m/l's, rb's, black powder. Everyone doesn't catch the bug, some will always see it as nothing more than a way to get an extra week of deer season. But at least he has the motivation to try something new and the good sense to ask the advice of someone who did catch the bug to try to make it work. That is a hopeful sign. And, truth to tell, even if I can't get around very well any more when it's raining, a lot of hunters I know prefer to do it in the rain because of the way sounds and scents behave. If you're going to carry a m/l around in the rain and get it all wet and rusty, it might as well be an inline, and (perish the thought) it might even work better than a traditional and actually go off when it comes down to shooting it in the downpour. The more shooters out there, the better, no matter what it is they are shooting that makes them one of us, and that's good enough for me. (Even if I wouldn't be caught dead with one, either. )

[Old Ironsights]

Not a big fan of Sabots here. In fast-twist inlines IMO there is no better boolit than a 200gr .45 Lee REAL. Put a max charge of 90 gr 3F behind it and he'll be accurate AND able to cast is own. (that's what we're about here, right?)

Remember the old "rule". One Grain per Caliber for target, 2 Grains per Caliber for Hunting. Never found a reason to deviate much from it.

As to Rain? I can (and have) shot my flint in the rain. You just need to load it in a dry spot and seal the pan/frizzen/touch-hole with some wax (that breaks away on firng). You only need one shot anyway, remember?

[44man]

Another secret for the flinter is to pull the barrel and slop the channel with a good paste wax, then put the barrel back in so it squeezes out the excess. Polish it up and go hunting. This keeps water from running down the barrel channel and getting into the pan from below. Paste wax works better on the exposed metal then oil does too.

[Willbird]

Well now, I have a TC Omega myself, sorry it aint a "real" muzzle loader . I wanted a ML that would shoot good, damn good in fact, so I bought me one . The Omega does not give up any bbl length to being an inline design like some others do because of it's falling block design.

That said, 777 is not to be meaured in WEIGHT, it is a BULK powder, IE you use the same VOLUME as 150 grains of BP. My Omega with the TC sabots and 300 grain bullets will group under 2" at 75 yards 3 shots with 777 volume equiv to 150 grains of BP, it will shoot more like 1" to 1.5" with 100 grains equiv(volume) of 777.

The 150 grain equiv charge of 777 gives over 2400fps..the 100 grain equiv charge of 777 runs about 2000fps both with a 300 grain bullet.

I ordered some VARIFLAME adaptors to try, many users claim the 209 primers (even the ones esp. for inlines) are hot enough that they lift the bullet off the powder before the fire gets lit, many users of the adaptors claim sub 1" groups with them, and 1-2 inch groups with 209's...........the dang BP 209's just cost too much to go out and shoot much, they run like $4 per 100..the variflame adaptor is a kit of 10 machined brass widgets that look like 209 primers, but take small rifle or small pistol primers, so you can try all kinds of differant primers if you wish.

I think the Omega is a fine rifle, good enough that I will use it both in shotgun season and BP season here in ohio........Harry Pope sure would have not EVER looked down his nose at anything about the Omega design, and inline rifles have been around in principle for as long as there have been BP firearms from what you read..my biggest objection to the early inline designs was loss of barrel length for a given overall length...and the Omega design cures that problem, with BP or it's analogs I want ALL the bbl length I can get, and losing 6" to say a model 700like action is simply not acceptible to me.

I also know the Omega with 150 gains equiv of 777 and a 300 grain bullet kicks like a MULE, but any 7lb rifle that is putting out 3800ft lbs of muzzle energy is gonna do that, so maybe your buddy has developed a well deserved flinch .

I also got some Goex Pinnacle to try, I want to go out and practice with the rifle before deer season, and 777 while probably the best hunting BP analog due to greater muzzle energy, is not so great for going out and shooting 20-50 shots due to the fouling from it....I have read nothing but good from the pinnacle in that regard so we will see, some users report 30-50 accurate shots with no patching.

Also on the 777, if I fire more than 5 shots with 100-150 grains equiv and do not clean the bore I will start to get patterns, so that is another consideration you might want to bring up with your friend...some people don't know the ML bag so good and don't consider that they need to learn their firearm and how many shots it will fire without patching the bore to remove residue.

Myself I stay away from the pellets, I have carried them for a rapid reload(seemed less prone to spillage when your shaking like a leaf after the first shot, and proved to be so far), and they do drop a shot into the group formed by the same amount of loose powder...but I prefer being able to FIRMLY seat the bullet/sabot and not having to worry about crushing the pellets, and also the loose powder is a lot cheaper than the pellets..

Bill

[Old Ironsights]

Bill, if you are shooting 300gr bullets over 150gr (v) powder I can assume with confidence that you are NOT shooting a .45.

Inline, underhammer, sidelock, whatever, the guy using 150gr in a .45 is using waaaaay too much powder.

In my Mossberg .50 inline ML barrel accuracy starts going to hell not long after 100gr powder. Sure, I can (and have) shoot 150gr(v)360gr Minnie loads (hell, I even feild tested a 500gr custom REAL...) but what's the point if you can't keep MOA at 100? All you are doing is wasting powder.

[StarMetal]

Willbird,

I'm drooling while reading your report on the Variflame for the group size change and NOTHING!!! Well you said you ordered them so maybe you don't have that yet and haven't tried them.

Here's my opinion. I have the TC Blackdiamond. It came with all three primer systems and the 209 shotgun one was the one that was installed at the factory so I tried and just stuck with it. First off, being BP is hard go get, I use Pyrodex and 777. I'm not going to tell folks what groups I get at 100 yds because I don't want to hear the crap, but it's good, better then good, very good. I also haven't noticed what you said about five shots or more with 777 and your groups change. Mine don't! What caliber is your Omega? My inline is a 50 cal. I noticed the 777 burns alot cleaner and I've also noticed that when you pull the trigger with 777 you don't get a boom you get a crack, like in a high powered centfire smokeless rifle. I don't even get that crack with Pyrodex.

I rarely hunt or use the inline anymore being I moved out of Ohio. That was the reason I bought it for in the first place. I just can't use a shotgun for deer hunting. I don't really care much of shotguns.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Willbird,

I forgot to mention on the reason for that Variflame that you stated. You know they use same shotgun primer in all gauges. There is also alot less powder in even a 12 ga shotshell then a muzzleloader. Then to look even further look how small the 410 is smaller in both shell size and powder load. With that said I'm not real convinced about what they said about the 209 primer lifting the bullet off the powder. Yes I know shotshells don't shoot groups, but you never hear anything negative about too much primer force. I just wonder if Variflame is just another gimmick to sale. Don't get me wrong, I believe a centerfire primer is much more efficient then those piddly little #11 caps. I remember when there was a company that had a nipple conversion for centerfire primers and then the ATF outlawed them. Now it's legal again.

Joe

[mooman76]

I can't remember where, I think it was another BB but I remember someone experimenting with Sabot's and he was cutting them so they would fall off and thus keep his shooting was more consistant and got better shot groups as a result!
But I agree with the majority that he is using too much powder.

[Willbird]

Joe I just ordered them last night, not here yet.

On the number of shots fired without patterns, I know I shot about (10-15) shots and lost grouping, in testing I have seen that I can get (5) without patterns...some somewhere in between is the spot . 777 will leave a nice candy ring in the bore about where the powder charge ends in my experience in this 50 omega, and in the 58 rifled musket I tried it in too.

I am so sorry to not understand the shooter had a 45 Omega.

part of the deal on the vari-flame is to get away from using the spensive 209ml primers for practice, I always have lots of SR and SP primers around, but simply HATE to pay $4 for 100 209ml. Ya the whole kit of 10 adaptors and the gear to load them cost as much as (500) primers, BUT it also makes the gun a bit more versatile if it can draw on the OTHER primer supply, I don't currently load shotgun shells that use 209's so have no real supply of 209's. People actually used to reload 209's with new berdan primers...have not heard of that in years................209's DO vary in strength, the differant powder charges listed for differant primers with same wad/shot/hull illustrates that ............BP 209's were also probably a LOT softer than today's 209's...I have read several places that BP primers did not have to be nearly as hot as smokeless ones are.

The flash hole in the Omega is darn tiny, and the powder is packed tight, I didnt lend a lot of credence to the blast from the primer lifting the charge either...yes they did test it with no powder and get the sabot/bullet to lift with a 209, but the area the pressure has to work on is so much larger(exponentially larger) that way than with a powder charge well packed into the divot in the breech plug that it really means nothing.

But we will learn something

I was thinking this afternoon after I posted my earlier reply that the Omega really closely duplicates the most used loading system in the scheutzen era, that being muzzle loaded projectile, and breech loaded black powder in a ctg. case fired with a normal primer for the day...........that system worked so good for so long that it took some doing to beat it . The Omega lets us clean the bbl easily from the breech (other ML do too sort of )

As the gun shoots now it seems to want to go sub 1" at 75 yards, that is plenty good enuf............I have in mind to shoot about 50 grains of pinnacle for practice and see how that works out........I did read one writer got far more consistant velocity and accuracy with pinnacle by weighing charges for consistancy due to the fine dust in the powder.

In case your wondering on the 75 yards, I can finally shoot at HOME now, and 75 yards puts me alongside the end of the house in sight of the door, 100 has the door 25 yards downrange, so I shoot at 75 when the wife is home, and she is always home hehe.

I did notice the CRACK..........and how quick the bullet gets to the target, and it makes a hell of a WACK on the 3/4" mild steel trauma plate on the front of my Railroad tie backstop .

Also Joe does the black diamond have the ez-load built in false muzzle like the Omega ?? I did notice some uneven fouling buildup in that area that I think may be leading to the patterns after 10-15 shots...the pattern issue also had a POI shift involved in it, higher and to the left, and THAT also points to possible fouling in the ez-load muzzle ball start maybe being the issue. At the point I saw accuracy drop the sabot/bullet was still loading smoothly so maybe it was not due to the 777 fouling in the area I mentioned down where the powder charge ends and the bullet starts.

Bill