What Happened?

[garandsrus]

Hi,

I was shooting at the range shooting a 1903A3 (30-06) with Lyman 311041 and 13 gr Red Dot shooting a steel plate and after several shots I felt some gas/particles on my face (was wearing glasses!) which was definitely not normal. The bolt was stuck closed.

We used a rubber mallet to pound the bolt open and eject the spent case, two picture of which are attached.




I have never seen a case head deformed like this before... The primer pocket is now .290 at it's widest and .283 at it's narrowest. A normal primer pocket is about .225! The case has a bulge at the base also where it is apparently unsupported in the 03A3 chamber. The case head is .541 at it's widest, compared to .a normal case at 470.

The primer was blown out of the case and flattened but of course was trapped by the bolt. It fell out when the bolt was opened. The front of the case looks completely normal.

I know that the previous bullet was not stuck in the barrel as it rang the plate. The shot that did this also rang the plate, about 6" at 100 yds!

There was no damage to the shooter or firearm... My question is: What happened???

John

[ssgt]

I had the same thing happen with an Enfield in .308. Case finally came out looking like a 30-30! As a matter of fact, it was with 12 grains of Reddot. Everyones first reaction was ..."too much powder" but after lengthy consideration I firmly believe it was too LITTLE powder.

Ive seen several blown firearms and cartridges and almost everytime it was caused by light loads of fast powder. A friend of mine always says that more guns are blown up by to little powder rather than too much, and the more I think about it the more I think hes right.

[Scrounger]

Most likely scenario is a double charge of powder. There is also a possibility that SOME of the previous powder drop stuck in the drop tube and then came out with the next charge. I had that happen in a .17 Remington with AA2015 powder. Had to send it back to the factory to get the bolt open, don't remember what all they replaced. And they didn't do it for free, either. Made an iron clad rule after that: Nothing but ball powders in the .17 caliber cases with those narrow necks and that narrow drop tube.

[felix]

SEE or a "double" charge will do this. Make sure with fast burning, especially flakey powder of any speed, you bang the powder dumper machine with authority on the dumping stroke. Don't worry, my powder machine was bought in the 70's and is still tight. Use the pistol sized (hole) drum whenever possible, and for rifle charges that actually requires the rifle drum, drop in two pistol sized loads. Use the flashlight when tray loading no matter what. ... felix

[Dale53]

This appears to me to be a classic case of a double charge. Everything that I have read regarding SEE in a rifle requires a small charge of SLOW burning powder.

The Red Dot load is a safe load - you apparently had a double charge. You'll be surprised how easy it is to dump a double charge. The suggestion that you had a powder hangup is also a possibility but is not apt to happen with Red Dot. On the other hand, 700X is NOTORIOUS for hanging up (I have viewed 700X under magnification and the powder grains look like lace doilies around the edge and this can "interlock" grains and hang up in the drop tube.

I am happy for you that no damage resulted to the operator.

FWIW
Dale53

[45 2.1]

Adouble charge of Red Dot would do more than whats shown. He got a funnel hangup with part of the previous charge in that case. Once the Dots get much above 40 KSI, they go bananas when overcharged.

[swheeler]

Scarey stuff there John, count your lucky stars!

[David R]

Red dot will hang up in the funnel or even my powder measure. I check each case with a "stick" or flashlight. I have had many cases where one is undercharged and the next is overcharged. I have burned at least 4 pounds in the last 2 years.

David

[catkiller45]

John,,

Just a thought john,but it has been my experince that some of the Remington cases have been double punched..Check the size of the flash hole..I have had this happen with a 221 Fireball,and a 308...But of course Remington would not admit to it..

I really don;t think your powder charge had anything to do with it..Another thing,have you had the head spacing checked on this rifle??

Some of the 303 British rifle will do this...Let me know,ok......Johnny

[catkiller45]

John,

One other thing comes to mind and that is,that with a charge simalair to ,the powder may have all been in the front part of the case..This is why I use just a tad of tissue paper in the case to hold the charge up against the primer..Johnny

[garandsrus]

All,

I noticed the size of the flash hole, but with the entire case head expanding, I chalked it up to the flash hole expanding along with the case head.

I would guess that a 1+ (less than double) funnel hangup charge may be the most likely candidate. I thought it was really strange that the front portion of the case didn't have any damage, but that may be because the barrel restricted it's movement.

I haven't ever had Red Dot hang up that I know of when I have weighed charges while adjusting the powder measure. After it's adjusted, I load using a progressive press and there's no powder checker die (Dillon 550B). It sounds like a marked stick may be in order...

John

[StarMetal]

garandsrus,

Well you're right about the front part of the case didn't have anywhere to go. Remember now the 1903's and A3's have a coned breech and this has always been subject to negative talk about that part of the case being unsupported...so I can see what has happened there happening.

45 2.1 is right about Red going ballistic above a certain rate, in fact this is one of the choice powders for maniac bomb makers.

Joe

[45 2.1]

One thing that helps a lot with the Dot powders is letting the rotor fill up, if you cycle the rotor fast, it gives varying charges. I had Green Dot do the in some 44s a couple of weeks ago and could see it in the loading block. I let the rotor fill slowly and the uneven charges stopped. Spider webs in the funnel don't help things either, especially when it takes awhile to find it.

[StarMetal]

Boy, I'm sure glad my Belding Mull powder measure doesn't have a hangup or double charge problem.

Joe

[DOUBLEJK]

I'm glad no injury occurred to anything but your case....

I use alot of Red Dot these days as it is very bulky for its weight and fills cases better than other powders in this speed range... however in my Uniflow or Little Dandy measures it is not as consistant in charge weight as I like...it varies several tenths as oppossed to ball powders that meter spot on.... so in the past I didn't use it much as trickling them took more time than I wanted to use... But now I have a Pact Digital scale with the Dispenser and for Red Dot it hits almost all spot on...I just dump the occasional drop that is 1 tenth off back in the hopper n hit the dispense button agian...

Like I said I'm using it alot in every thing from 32-20's too 8X57's and have become quite attached to it as velocity spreads are extremely low and accurracy is as good as my full house loads but I plink way more than hunt and love its economy and mild recoil...

Now for a question of the more learned folk's herebouts....

The comment about to little Red Dot has me a bit befuddled...

How can a low charge of a fast powder that burns up before the bullet even exits the case cause pressures to go higher?
I have used Red Dot as well as Bullseye as powder for squib loads...
Maybe I've just been lucky but I've shot 1000's of em and never experienced a supprise in pressure going high...
Seems to me there is only so much energy available here and I don't see how with even less powder you could create more pressure with a powder this fast...

I can understand where a low charge of a slow powder say 4831 at 40% load density containing more energy than a small charge of fast powder say Red Dot at 10% load density could possibly change its burn characteristics too faster resulting in an unexpected spike in pressure by releasing that energy too quick....

[No_1]

If what you stated below is true then I wonder which case in your stash is missing the partial charge that may have caused this AND keeping with that theory it could be possible you have one loaded with a super small charge. I wonder what kind of damage this condition could cause when you drop the hammer on THAT one?

Just my .02,

Robert

I would guess that a 1+ (less than double) funnel hangup charge may be the most likely candidate. I thought it was really strange that the front portion of the case didn't have any damage, but that may be because the barrel restricted it's movement.
John

[felix]

A SEE by definition is when the all, or some, powder burns all at once, with no progression whatsoever. Can happen anytime with any powder formulation. Yes, the fast powders especially should (must, actually) be against the primer. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

When you operate with small charges of let's call it super fast powder for a cartridge, (you know, one where your load volume is less than 50% of capacity), then you better prep your brass well and concievably use a filler. I suppose most people have seen a cut out of a case with a primer firing over the years and see the ventury or fire fan.

Now suppose that you have a burr inside the case where the flash hole was punched in. That burr is going to block or divert that ventury. That case can be loaded 100 times without incident. But if it is loaded and chambered at 6 o'clock and the small charge is mostly hidden by it, then problems can develop. Or maybe the primer doesn't burn with the same force. Here you are trusting your situation to someone you don't even know on a .05 product.

I deburr every case I use and I still won't go to those cost saving charges. Because they do save ..... till they don't. Then the price you might pay may be your fault, no one's fault, but it will be paid just the same. Everytime you pull that trigger and ignite a round, you takes your chances.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I mentioned SEE and these light charges of fast burning powders in large cases in a recent other threat on fillers. One of the posters, who is obvisionly against fillers, mocked me when I said to give us all the details when he eventually blows his rifle up. Hopefully he's reading this threat and seeing that I'm not the only one talking about this terrible event.

Joe

[Buckshot]

.................This is what a double charge of H4227 under a Lyman 311284 does to a low number Springfield:





In the bottom left corner of the bottom right photo is all that remains of the casehead. All the yellow color is vaporized brass on the action pieces. Both bolt lugs were cracked. You can't see it in the photo but the safety lug mashed back into the right bridge wall (as it's supposed to) and put a big ole dent into it.

I could say that the bolt was still lying there in the action, because it was. However that doesn't mean anything at all as effectively there wasn't really much action left! Had I tilted the rifle upside down the bolt would have just fallen to the ground.

I got a scratch at the hairline on my forehead. Lucky?

BTW, that 215gr boolit tripped the chronograph at 3059 fps. No leading either

................Buckshot