Golden Saber Question

[lwknight]

I have worked with 124 grain 9mm GS for awhile and 6.0 grains WSF (90% cap)gets me 1220 fps with impressive water jug tests.
Now I'm starting to work up 9mm GS 147 grain loads. 6.0 grains is 100% capacity only gets me 1050 fps.

It would seem logical to have the same energy with the same charge and maybe even higher energy from a heavier bullet since some powder is waste in short barrels with light barrels.

Problem and question:
124 grains @1220 fps = 410 lb.ft.
147 graind @1050 fps =360 lb.ft.

Can anyone comment on real life performance test comparing these 2 bullets and is 1050 fps considered plenty good for SD situations. I know that some people think a .380 will do the job but, I do not subscribe to that belief.

If I really want to push the limits I can get 1300 fps from a 124 grain bullet with 460 lb.ft energy but its hard on the gun.
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[sagacious]

I'm sure you already know this, but one of the great things about the GS is that it's designed to open fast, and work well with standard-for-caliber velocities. The 9mm 124gr GS is impressive on water jugs down to al least 1088fps avg, in my tests. Penetration in 9mm is never a problem, but reliable hp's can be. More speed can mean more reliable expansion, but the GS doesn't need more speed to work as designed. I load the 124gr GS in 9mm to the same speed as you, and specifically like the fact that it's easy on guns. 1050 with the 147gr seems plenty good. I also load the 45ACP 230gr GS to standard-full velocity. Nice hp's to work with because they group so well.

[GabbyM]

I have some VV 3n38 here that's supposed to push a 147gr Hornady to 1207 fps.
I've been slow about getting out to test the laod. It's listed on website. http://vihtavuori-lapua.com/
I dont think you'll get the GS bullet going as fast as the Hornady but I could be wrong.

What you are running into with the 147 gr and WSF is reduced powder capacity with the heavier bullet farther down into the case. The VV 3n38 powder or AA #7 will yield higher velocity with the big bullets.

[lwknight]

Good to know about the 3n38.
I am having second thoughts about the " Go heavy " theory in SD ammo.

Example : Its common opinion that the 158 grain .357 magnum is an over penetrator and wastes energy. Wasting energy is no big deal other than you get extra blast and recoil that are not advantagous in SD. Next , according to FBI data , the .357 magnum 125 grain bullet is a slightly more effective fight stopper than the 158 grain bullet.

Since I can get a 124 grain 9mm up to the modern off the shelf .357 mag energy
( modern 357 mag ammo is watered down) and cannot get a heavier bullet to the same energy level ( without regard to velocity ) it would seem logical to stay with the lighter bullets.

Anyway I love experimenting and shooting and have 1000 147 grain Rem. GS bullets to play with.

[HeavyMetal]

I'd stick to the 125 GS for SD!

I've read several statements that the 147's are not doing the job as promised hence the move in many dept's to the 40 S&W which is also not up to par when using bullets in 170 and up weight class.

Switch to Blue dot under the 125. Depending on barrel length you may get into the 1300's and, used sparingly, this will do the same job a 357 mag 125 grain load which was noted in the early 80's as a 99% one shot stop round!

I personnally detest bullet weights that are to heavy for the caliber performance level and the 147 and a 9mm just don't fit and I don't care how many people try to change it!

Same with the 40! 155 should be the max bullet weight for SD this gets into the 1290 1300 range as well. which seems to be the magic number with the smaller calibers.

Just my opinion to be taken, as always, with a grain of salt!

[GabbyM]

9mm worked pretty good for almost a century then the FBI geniuses played with it.
FBI load with 147 is sub sonic 940 fps and a proven disaster. It takes something like 950 fps to set up a shock wave and all that temporary cavity business. According to ballistic gel test. Whole reason the 9mm had a better reputation than the 38 Special was the velocity plus the FMJ bullets that would always penetrate. FBI lawyers thought they'd civilize the 9mm and go with sub sonic pip squeak loads and a heavy HP bullet. Anyone who understood what makes a 9mm work knew that was going to fall flat.

If you read some on Veral Smiths web page you'll see where he recommends choosing a bullet weight you can shoot at 1,200 fps. And using flat nose bullets. I totally agree with that theory. To get a longer wound channel add weight to the bullet but not at the sacrifice of the 1200 fps velocity target.

You want a super sonic bullet and you want it to stay supersonic as long as possible while it penetrates.
I've never used 124 grain HP bullets in 9mm. Used either NATO ball or a TCFP bullet at around 1200 fps. Flat nose 124gr 9mm is an impressive round at 1200 fps. Now with this VV 3n38 powder I figure if I can shoot a 147 at close to 1200 fps it would have enough push to it to use a hollow point. Mostly will be shooting the Magma 147 fp cast lead boolit.

I may not like them and go back to the 124's I've been shooting for 35 years. Have shot quite a few cast 147's at 945 fps and do not like them for accuracy or how they hit.

[Char-Gar]

Somebody quick, drive a stake through the heart of this thread! At least hang garlic and make the sign of the cross! These yahoos are talking about those dreadful little yellow thingies on the Cast Boolit board. Oh the horror!

[sagacious]

124 is plenty good in 9mm. I discarded the 'heavier is better for SD' theory long ago. One of the nice things about the 124gr in 9mm is that it allows wider latitude in powder selection than both lighter-weight and heavier bullets for that cartridge, while still giving good velocity.

[lwknight]

Somebody quick, drive a stake through the heart of this thread! At least hang garlic and make the sign of the cross! These yahoos are talking about those dreadful little yellow thingies on the Cast Boolit board. Oh the horror!

Take it easy grasshopper. This is the shooters.com of general portion of castboolits forum.
Really my first question was tailored more to the pheonomona that heavier
bullets end up with less energy than lighter bullets with the same powder charge.
That is what intrigues me.

[Char-Gar]

A little history lesson Pismeyer Ant. The founding group of this board started it's unique cast bullet internet effort on a web site called Shooter.com. In the due course of time it went belly us and left the brotherhood without a home. After a few false starts on other boards, it ended up here. When this board was set up, it kept one place where the old cronies from Shooters.com could gather. It was our stove/cracker barrel.

So, this is not a general information, jacketed bullet place. You are entirely wrong in that. But, times change and I don't make the rules, only recall the history.

I really don't care if you like Golden Sabers either in bullet or suppository form. I really don't mind if you want to lard up this site with the talk of the same. Very few of the real old founding casters hang around this board any more. Mission drift is one of the causes of their departure.

I don't suppose that means anything to you, but there are still a few of us who care where this board came from and where it is going.

[lwknight]

Charger , I'm glad you are not a mod here. If we can't discuss anything other than lead I would be just bumpin it on down the road. And I think a great number of others would too.

There is only so much to say about lead and it would get very drole in that confinement.

[GabbyM]

LwKnight:
to answer the mystery question. You need a slower powder and more of it by weight to get that heavier bullet going. That is a surprising result though. Must have something to do with pressure curve. Which will change as you change weight of the bullet.

6 grains of WSF under 147gr looks like a huge charge judging by my books. Looks like it would be +P for a 124 grain.

[lwknight]

This definately bears experiment worthy in my book. 6.0 grains WSF in 9mm 124 grain bullet is most definately +P and probably +P+.

Gabby , you definately make sense. I did not see any indication of higher pressures with the 147 grain bullets. Thoeretically it should have been.

WSF comes in at No. 47 . Maybe not as scaleably versitile as I had thought.
True Blue @ 56
3N38 @ 58
Blue Dot @60
Win.571 @ 61 ( have not seen that on a shelf )

I don't know if I can get 3N38 easily but maybe Ramshot True Blue will be a little closer to the bill at least.

OK If you never hear from me again , you will know what happened. I'm going to try 296 in a 9mm.
I would think its too slow for the short barrel but could just work. I bet it don't even cycle the slide. I will make the first test in a High Point rifle.

[StrawHat]

...There is only so much to say about lead and it would get very drole in that confinement...

That is why this site is geared toward lead shooters. And there are many nuances involved in shooting lead. Get the garlic and the stakes.

[Char-Gar]

Mr. Knight...

1. Nope, I am not a mod and don't make the rules, but if I did there would be no condom threads allowed. Unless I become a moderator, I will just have to settle for giving my opinion. Which is...This thread sucks!

2. I have been handloading since 1958 and there was just so much to be said for reloading condom bullets, so in my boredom I took up the serious craft of cast bullet shooting. Cast bullet shooting is taken seriously is far, far more complex than pushing those dreadful little yellow thingies down a barrel. Cast bullet shooting is the post-graduate level of handloading.

3. Bullet casters ought to have a place where they can gather and share experiences, information that is not trashed up with general stuff, like all of the other dishwater gun boards out there. This board was started with that unique purpose and was at it's best when it stayed with it's purpose. Those who find bullet casting droll should move on down the road and find a place that scratches where they itch.

[lwknight]

OK so I'll do my powder testing with cast boolis.
Happy?
It is OK to talk about gunpowder here , right?

[Char-Gar]

Yep..powder is cool! Proceed at flank speed!

[zxcvbob]

Instead of WSF (which is an awesome powder) try AA#7 or Power Pistol or maybe HS-6 for those 147's. WSF is a little too fast. (Power Pistol and Bullseye are slower-burning than their places on most burn charts would indicate. The charts seem to be adjusted for energy content.) I would start with AA#7, which is about like Blue Dot but denser and less prone to drama.

I shoot 135 grain LRN bullets in 9mm. I don't know why that weight isn't more popular -- it's heavy but still leaves you some room in the case for powder.

[sagacious]

There are many useful current threads with topics that touch upon the 'other' type of bullet. One might as well just make a clean sweep of it, and remove all of those threads..... along with virtually the entire swaging forum, and those other forums such as the rimfire forum-- where casting is a near impossibility, and some calibers were/are/never will be available with non-jacketed bullets. That'll help keep the riff-raff down.

LWknight has provided so much accurate and relevant insight on so many threads that criticism of his reasoned and helpful input is nothing short of outright ludicrous and ungrateful. The members here owe him a sincere thanks, and a small spot of help with his query here hardly blights this board. Rude and loud-mouthed antagonism does. Indeed, where's a mod when ya need one?

[casterofboolits]

I find the thread intresting, if some what redundant. IIRC the FBI and other law enforcement agencies abandoned the 147 grain round due to it's over penetration.

The heaviest boolit I have loaded in the nine is a 135 grain TC.

If you want to launch a heavier nine, try the 38 Super. I used a 158 grain SWC over Blue dot to get 1230 FPS out of a six inch supported barrel and 1190 when cut to 5 1/2 inch and a comp added. This load made major for IPSC, in fact it exceeded the 180 PF by 8 points.

For SD, I much prefer the 45 ACP with the dreaded yellow word HP's.