.308 Copper Bullets in .318 Mauser

[BAW]

I own a circa 1913 M98 Mauser sporter with an 8X57"I" bore - that is, .318. I use cast gas check bullets made in a Lyman mold made speciffically for the purpose, or .318 jacketed bullets made by Woodleigh. I would like to use the rifle in an area which prohibits lead or lead-based bullets; only solid copper or gilding metal bullets are allowed. Unfortunately no one makes lead-free bullets in .318 diameter. They are available in .308, .310 and .311 diameter, however. In this forum I have read accounts of people using paper patched .308 cast bullets in .318 bore rifles. Has anyone out there tried it with all copper bullets? Any thoughts or suggestions would be very welcome. I have never used paper patched bullets before.

[barrabruce]

Passive reply here take it with a grain of salt.

Find the bore dia which I don't know.

To patch copper jacked stuff I have read that rolling the bullet under a course "clean" file will raise a knurl type mark.

2x or 3x warp with paper then size to 1 thou over groove.

Printer paper may be the go if its 308-318 = 10 + 1 for contact=11/4 = 2.75 thou min paper.

Wrap a few and try with min loads can't see it hurting anything if they strike side ways at the target.

Some of the people who know better than I will be along shortly.

Barra

[303Guy]

If printer paper doesn't work there is still the much stronger cotton tracing paper to try. That stuff expands when wet and shrinks down real tight! Someone on this sight has done it successfully. Hopefully, he will be along soon. Otherwise try doing a search for paper patching jacketeds or something that might yeild results. (It'll be under the now black powder paper patching forum).

[pdawg_shooter]

That is how I got started paper patching back in the 70s. Pick your bullet, give it 2 wraps of 16# paper and load like jacketed. You will have to flair the case mouths a bit so you dont tear the paper. You may also want to roll the bullet under a sharp file to give the paper a little grip on the bullet. Not really necessary but it makes it a lot easier to roll the patch on.

[Zeek]

You can do a similar trick by patching up a longish 25-caliber J-Boo and then shooting it in any chambering in a 6.5mm barrel. THIS is the one that I am going to try in my lovely as-issued 1896 Swedish Mauser!

Another pair is to patch up a 270 J-boo and shoot it in any 7mm chambering.

How about 348 J-boos in 35 caliber chamberings?

Lastly, heavy 45 pistol J-Boos patched up to use with any 45 caliber rifle chambering.
Zeek

[BAW]

Many thanks to everyone who offered advice and encouragement. I will give it a try and post any further questions, and will share anything I learn that might be of value.

[Zeek]

This response has to do with PPJBoos, and I know that this part of this site is about PPCBoos. However, the purpose of doing the following experiment is to get a better handle on what the limiting PPCBoo factors are in the recalcitrant 6.5xmm Mauser's very-fast-twist rifling. So, please bear with me.

I know that the following does not answer BAW's question directly, or even partially, but his idea of using PPatched no-lead-JBoos in a no-lead-bullet hunting area got me thinking. The Barnes solids are unlikely to obturate, which might pose a problem, so I thought I'd go at the issue by trying PPJBoos first because they should obturate. If that works, then I'll know that the only thing that I am adding, by going to a PPBarnes, is that no obturation is going to occur.

So, I looked for a deal on heavyish 25 caliber JBoos and came up with Hornady's 117gr SST's. Rolling them between files brought them up from 0.257" diameter to 0.258" and added just the slightest roughness (hard to feel by the finger, but easty to see on the jacket). Adding a 2X16# patch brought these up to 0.267", which, in my Model 1896 Swedish Mauser's shallow leade cone gives a strong-touch-into-the-leade LOA of 3.06", which is about right. Here is what they look like (L: factory || R: file-rolled || B: patched).


I plan to take these to the range tomorrow and work then up together with a parallel 25-20 PPCBoo try on a NEI 89gr CBoo core.
Zeek

[Zeek]

Well, at least for soft-core JBoos, it looks like using undersized ones and patching them up to caliber-groove diameter works nicely. Using a ~50 Kpsi load of AA-4350, the Hornady 117 grain JBoo, patched up to 0.267" with a 2X16# patch, gave 50 yard results of around 1.5", with most shots clustering into under an inch. MV was ~2900 flips. I did get the occasional flier, but nothing wild. I thought I'd try it in the 6.5x55 because its deep rifling and way-fast twist poses, perhaps, the greatest challenge to such a projectile.

I'll try it next on some 257 Barnes solids, if I can find any, then it will be back to the PPCBoo grind stone. Speaking of which, the 25-20 did okay with NEI 89gr CBoo cores (1.5" 50 yard groups at an MV ov ~2100 fps), sized to 0.251, patched 2X16#, and sized to 0.258". This is about the accuracy that rifle gives with JBoos and GCCBoos, so I'll accept it as good news. The loaded cartridge sure does look cool with that PPCBoo stikin' out the front.
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

That's interesting work you are doing there, Zeek.

[Zeek]

Well, thanks, 303Guy. It could be useful only for a fellow in the shoot-no-lead hunting area with a PPatch-only rifle, or for somebody with JBoos he has sitting around in a slightly-less-than-my-caliber diameter. However, if I worried about how many folks would use the work coming from my experiments, that would put a real crimp in my craw. I just love fiddling around with stuff to see if I can get it to fly under untoward applications.

Thanks to y'awl for putting up with some PPJBoo tinkerin'. I want to keep fiddling with the 6.5x55 and PPCBoos and this experimentin' may well provide some useful information for that application. We'll see. Last night, finally, I found a source for the 115gr Barnes (~$30 for only 50!!), so should soon have the means for doing that PP-way-hard-JBoo May-Boo experiment.
Regards, Zeek

[pdawg_shooter]

Thanks to y'awl for putting up with some PPJBoo tinkerin'. I want to keep fiddling with the 6.5x55 and PPCBoos and this experimentin' may well provide some useful information for that application. We'll see. Last night, finally, I found a source for the 115gr Barnes (~$30 for only 50!!), so should soon have the means for doing that PP-way-hard-JBoo May-Boo experiment.
Regards, Zeek

I know a fellow who PPed some hardened drill rod steel bullets. He wanted some armor piercing.

[Zeek]

Well, PDAWG_SHOOTER, did he get any accuracy with those hardened-steel-core PPToolBoo thangies? That completely non-yielding Boo-Core thangy really has me wondering! The Barnes' Brass-Boos arrived. I hope to get them wrapped and tried this weekend.
Zeek

[Zeek]

Well, I got the darn Barnes 115 gr JBoos all patched up. Here's what is special about this batch:

Unlike the soft-core JBoos from last week, I did not roll them between files prior to putting on the PPatch;
I did a few with a 2X16# (white paper, shows pink below) patch, bringing them to 0.266". This may not provide enough "bite" for the lands; so
I did the rest with a 2X24# (green paper) patch, bringing them to 0.271", then ran them through a 0.269" lubrisizer die, just to be sure that they do not exceed the throating's 0.270" entry diameter.

The size-down proved easy, and there is still plenty of air left in the patch, so the pneumatic effect should not be harmed. The plan is to take them out to the range tomorrow and introduce them to the backstop. I'll stick with the sort of stout load that worked okay on the soft-core-PPJBoos last weekend, so should be at around 2800 fps.

IF the greenies will shoot at least okay, then I'll use the best load and run a group with the whities (thin patch) to see if a thinner patch works. Neither load will give full compression of the patch in the grooves. For full compression in the grooves, the whities will be 0.007" short of it, and the greenies 0.005" short. I know that air cannot travel far in the PPatch in the short time available in-barrel, but I am hoping the the greenies, and perhaps the whities also, will move enough gas sideways (both directions) from each landtop (which zone is subject to a MAAAAJOR cruching) to "pump up the tire" in the portion of the PPatch in the adjacent grooves. If so, then it will seal fine, as indicated by good grouping. If not, then not, in which patch blow-thru is likely and that may ruin accuracy. There's only one way to find out whether the raw liver will stick to the wall.
Zeek

[barrabruce]

O.K. i am eagerly waiting the report.
Where are you getting this Tyre effect from and how do you work it out.
I must have missed it somewhere.

Having a look at them green ones is making me all tingly.
what are you using for the red wad and how have you got them stuck on.
I tried a couple of trepanned cardboard ones just loose with some filler behind it to keep them there but they look awesome.
Could be what I'm looking for.
I also see some type of lube groove effect ??????
Bruce

[Zeek]

O.K. i am eagerly waiting the report.
Where are you getting this Tyre effect from and how do you work it out. I must have missed it somewhere.

I have come to call it the "(truck) tire effect" because there really is waaaay too little time for the air that is trapped in the PPatch to escape during the couple of milliseconds the PPCBoo is traveling down the barrel. Therefore, the patch does NOT compress until there is no more air in it, as I once thought. Instead, the air and fibers are compressed until the fibers back each other up into a solid (with the compressed gas still inside). The CBoo core then deforms to accommodate this inward movement along the land tops. Any slight latteral bleeding of air within the patch can only be to either side of the land, into the groove, where the fibers are not so heavily compressed. This all acts just like a scaled-down slightly oversize inflated pneumatic truck tire would, if it were fired down the barrel ~~~> the gas presses the paper out to make an excellent seal against ALL portions of the barrel (groove and land), thereby prohibiting blow-by and also transimtting torque quite effectively. They is WHY PPCBoos work.

Having a look at them green ones is making me all tingly. what are you using for the red wad and how have you got them stuck on. I tried a couple of trepanned cardboard ones just loose with some filler behind it to keep them there but they look awesome. Could be what I'm looking for.

Both the 2x16# and 2X24# jackets worked fine, even with that way-extra-hard JBoo as the core. What did NOT work was when I trimmed off the greenie PPatch to the front groove of the JBoo. That didn't go wild, but the group opened up alarmingly. The red bottoms are 1/4" diameter paper sticker buttons (used to identify sale items in stores). They are available in sheets and rolls at business supply venues.

I also see some type of lube groove effect ??????
Bruce

The Barnes bullets have girdle-grooves cut into them at intervals along the full-diameter portion, presumabely to provide a place for the hard material to go when it is displaced by the lands. These played no part in the experiment. For example, the 117gr lead-core PPJBoos I used last weekend had no such girdle-grooves and shot about the same (~2800 fps, most going into 1" to 1.4" or so at 50 yards, from an iron-sighted 1896 Swedish Mauser).

The results are that we now know that the PPatch can work even with Boo cores that are far harder than we can ever make them with any lead/antimony/tin alloy, even with heat treating. And, the truck tire effect is proved too, pretty much, given that neither of these PPatches filled the grooves, yet they sealed well (leaking along the grooves gives terrible accuracy). So, the along-each-groove part of the PPatch was inflated to provide sealing. At least, that is the way it looks to me.

Now I can go back to playing with PPCBoos.
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

(leaking along the grooves gives terrible accuracy)

Mmmm ... I wonder whether that is why my two-groove shot poorly? The grooves are way to deep to seal. I do know that the rough edged grooves cut into the core or patch opening up a leakage path. Wheat bran seems to stop the cutting and leaking. I haven't tried it on the range with WB.

[barrabruce]

Thanks zeek.
Maybe thats why I'm not gettign accuracy.
My core maybe too big.

Thanks for the info.
Bruce

[pdawg_shooter]

Well, PDAWG_SHOOTER, did he get any accuracy with those hardened-steel-core PPToolBoo thangies? That completely non-yielding Boo-Core thangy really has me wondering! The Barnes' Brass-Boos arrived. I hope to get them wrapped and tried this weekend.
Zeek

The rifle shot just as good with them as with unpatched jacketed. Just an experiment to see if it could be done. Armor piercing bullets dont have too many uses for us.

[goofyoldfart]

ZEEK as per #7. Those green and red PPJBoo's what you shoot at Santa's reindeer on Christmas??? you know , sort of keeping in the spirit of things!! :P

[303Guy]

The rifle shot just as good with them as with unpatched jacketed.

Hang on. Let's go back a few steps. He took a hardened steel core and patched them up and they shot just as good? What was the shape of those hardened steel cores? What was many things? I'm not interested in piercing armour but the PRINCIPLE is intriguing! Heck, if'n I were to turn off a few mild steel cores and patch 'em up for target shootin' .... see what I mean? And the shape and patch design might be of value to core casters. And armour piercing would imply high velocity - varminting patched PPCBoos? (Or PPBoos). Zeek, do you you see a whole new field to experiment and play around with?