More errors with single stage press???

[mike in co]

Well (as you said) "Mr." Mike, there you go again. I think the only reason you posted is to write something contrary to what I said. It's obvious that either you didn't read my post or you didn't pay any attention to what you were reading.

I look at single-stage presses as giving someone ten times the opportunity to catch errors and learn the handloading craft, while you claim they give them ten times more chance for error. That's pretty negative on your part. I'd say you're the one giving folks too little credit. In addition, just because you "pointed it out", doesn't make it Gospel.

I already told you I own a Dillon 550 and have loaded tens of thousands of rounds on it, most successfully, but if you don't read and pay attention, I guess it doesn't matter. And, by the way, I've driven a stick since 1965, with a couple of tries at automatics. Two of the three I didn't like. The one I have now is pretty nice. I like it better than a stick when I'm operating the Ham rig. Six speeds, smooth shifts, always in the right gear for the driving situation - and hands (and left foot) free!

Lighten up, Mike. Try making suggestions or stating that something is "in your opinion" or "in your experience", rather than implying that anyone who doesn't do things just your way is an idiot. That's the way you come across. Go back and read your own posts. Every one of them is telling someone, either implicitly or explicitly, "you're wrong". It gets old.

Regards,

Stew

now who is not reading the entire post....go read mine again.....well get someone to read it too you, you seem to only "read" what you want to hear.....


i only do this to up your post count.

ohh and cause i have a point....
did you read my original post ??/
i think not...well you did not comprehend it...and my last post i cover ed it again.
i swear you said you would put me on your ignore list.....
( but if you do i csannot help with your post count)
mike in co

[Heavy lead]

One is responsible for all aspects of handloading whether on a Lee loader, single stage, or progressive, or for that matter a cap and ball revolver. I use single stage for most rifle, LNL's for pistoliver's, mec's for shotguns, have used turret's also (have none now). Haven't had a double charge (yet, knock on wood) had a couple powderless squibs in the distant past (using a single stage, in my later youth, that was my fault, not the equipment). Attention to detail, and reduntancy checks, and methodical technique is the answer to quality ammunition, not that equipment or the quality and being familiar with it doesn't help. I still will not seat a bullet, or boolit without ever visually verifying a powder charge, period, regardless of the type of press is used. Good lighting is your friend.

[AZ-Stew]

now who is not reading the entire post....go read mine again.....well get someone to read it too you, you seem to only "read" what you want to hear.....


i only do this to up your post count.

ohh and cause i have a point....
did you read my original post ??/
i think not...well you did not comprehend it...and my last post i cover ed it again.
i swear you said you would put me on your ignore list.....
( but if you do i csannot help with your post count)
mike in co

Mike,

I think you need a proof reader. Or a few less beers. Also, learn to use the shift key and think about punctuation. Your posts are getting hard to read.

No, I didn't say I'd put you on my ignore list. I did hint that I might if you got too obnoxious. You haven't quite crossed the line yet. Again, you aren't paying strict attention to what you read.

I hope you feel better tomorrow. You're entertaining.

Regards,

Stew

[1hole]

"well i missed your point too...tho intentionally..."

Soooo...do you often "intentionally" miss the point of what someone has said so you can take "expert" exception to what they didn't say?


"but then there is that statement about not having to be a rocket scientist...well i did use to build and launch them....."

Matter of fact, so did I. Difference between us is I don't toss it out in any attempt to build credibility on any subject based on irrelivances. ???

But, you do what you need to do for whatever is driving your snarly reactions, it's all free for amusement anyway.

[mike in co]

"well i missed your point too...tho intentionally..."

Soooo...do you often "intentionally" miss the point of what someone has said so you can take "expert" exception to what they didn't say?


"but then there is that statement about not having to be a rocket scientist...well i did use to build and launch them....."

Matter of fact, so did I. Difference between us is I don't toss it out in any attempt to build credibility on any subject based on irrelivances. ???

But, you do what you need to do for whatever is driving your snarly reactions, it's all free for amusement anyway.

so maybe you should read alittle and then get someone to explain what you read.

where did i say i was an expert ??....dont put words in my mouth....

so go away and come back when you grow up and can follow a conversation.......
later

mike in co

[mike in co]

Well (as you said) "Mr." Mike, there you go again. I think the only reason you posted is to write something contrary to what I said. It's obvious that either you didn't read my post or you didn't pay any attention to what you were reading.

I look at single-stage presses as giving someone ten times the opportunity to catch errors and learn the handloading craft, while you claim they give them ten times more chance for error. That's pretty negative on your part. I'd say you're the one giving folks too little credit. In addition, just because you "pointed it out", doesn't make it Gospel.
Regards,

Stew

ok since you did not go back and read what i ACTUALLY said, i'll post it with yours.

"i agree with tthe potemtial in a single stage press, for more errors.
its simple you load fifty rounds on a single.....you handle the case
look as the list
touch ..into press, size, deprime reprime, touch....50 times
touch bell the case touch....fifty times
touch drop powder touch( or one big touch if using a loading block.....fifty up and downs on the powder measure.
touch seat bullet/boolit touch
touch crimp touch..........
go count the "touches" every one is a POTENTIAL for error....and a potential to DISCOVER the error.
10 touches x 50 cases= 500 potentials for error"


can you see the word "potential".............i did not say every person made 500 errors...i did not say that some people are capable of checking what they do, but i did say, in response to the ORIGINAL QUESTION, that yes there is a POTENTIAL for more errors with a single stage press.

now go read the second to last line......."and a potential to DISCOVER the error."

so tell me again where we dissagree and where i was negative in respose to the original question.


mike in co

[Crash_Corrigan]

I made the mistake of starting out with a Lee Loadmaster progressive press. It was complicated. It was tough to set up right. It is a wonder to behold when it is working right. With the auto case feeder and bullet feeder it can really churn out the ammo.

However the primer system is insane. I was always having problems with it and I was constantly cleaning spilled powder from the shell plate and the press. I cannot tell you of how many rounds came out with a missing primer or a primer sideways in the primer hole.

I finally junked it and got a Dillon 550B. Now that is a decent semi=progressive press. The only weak point is the again the priming system. It does not always pick up a new primer from the magazine and I have found that operating the press at a deliberate speed where I can feel the primer being pushed into the pocket prevents any primer problems.

Now I have set up one of those cheapo LED flashlights into the center of the press to illuminate the opertion and I can see if the primer cup has a primer from the magazine and rectify the situation before I miss priming a case.

The only other problem is the manual indexing of the shellplate. If you forget you will double charge the case so using a light or bulky powder is a requirement. If I see there is already powder in the case then I just advance the shellplate. If there is not then I operate the handle of the press and motor on.

I load for 13 calibers and this press and my Dillon Square Deal get a workout. I still have two single stage presses for decapping and priming and for certain rifle rounds and I have a new Lee Classic Turret Press that I am putting into service but I am still learning about the priming process on this baby. Typical Lee rube goldberg system but it may work out.....

[mike in co]

crash,
deprime on the dillon its faster........

mike

[dromia]

Mike and AZ can we stay on topic please.

Wouldn't want it to get personal now would we?

[mike in co]

Mike and AZ can we stay on topic please.

Wouldn't want it to get personal now would we?

???????????????????
dromia...ya got me confused...
????????????????///

only my last comment is not on the ORIGINAL topic, it was in response to depriming on a single stage when a dillon was available.......

all else has been about the original post.....

" more ROOM FOR ERRORS with a single stage press than progressive"

notice it does not say MORE ERRORS

[jcwit]

Well if one walks thru the pasture long enough, sooner or later it going to go squish. Holds tru for anything or whatever you're doing.

Just a fact of life.

[Geraldo]

Well if one walks thru the pasture long enough, sooner or later it going to go squish. Holds tru for anything or whatever you're doing.

Just a fact of life.

Maybe in some things, but not everything. In my career the acceptable level of error was "zero". My belief is that if you expect or accept mistakes, you will make them. My goal with ammo is perfection, every single time, and nothing less is acceptable to me. If that means going slower and rechecking, then so be it.

The type of press doesn't matter one bit as to frequency of error, because to my knowledge there is no press that loads components and operates itself. People can blame the machine, but in the end it all boils down to operator error.

[mike in co]

Maybe in some things, but not everything. In my career the acceptable level of error was "zero". My belief is that if you expect or accept mistakes, you will make them. My goal with ammo is perfection, every single time, and nothing less is acceptable to me. If that means going slower and rechecking, then so be it.

The type of press doesn't matter one bit as to frequency of error, because to my knowledge there is no press that loads components and operates itself. People can blame the machine, but in the end it all boils down to operator error.

g,, i agree with most of wht you said, which is why the poster is on my ignore list.

but the type of press does matter as to the (potential) for frequency of error. go look at my origianl post. more human touches is more potentila errors/chances to find errors.

mike in co

[dromia]

???????????????????
dromia...ya got me confused...
????????????????///

Mike I'm sure you get my point, no need for us to disambiguate.

[jcwit]

Maybe in some things, but not everything. In my career the acceptable level of error was "zero". My belief is that if you expect or accept mistakes, you will make them. My goal with ammo is perfection, every single time, and nothing less is acceptable to me. If that means going slower and rechecking, then so be it.

The type of press doesn't matter one bit as to frequency of error, because to my knowledge there is no press that loads components and operates itself. People can blame the machine, but in the end it all boils down to operator error.

The idea is great, just doesn't hold up in real life tho. I'm sure NASA's goal is "ZERO" defects, even so we lost two of the space shuttles over the years. Errors happen every day, no matter how many safety steps we take. After all we are human, and not God. Just because it hasn't happened, only means - - not yet.

BTW; Thanks Mike for the info, good to know, if by chance you read this.

[atr]

I only use a single stage press,,,,,and I load for 10 different calibers....
I agree with Duckiller....the more you handle a case the more opportunity you have to discover any error
in my opinion the biggest potential for error with a single stage operation, is when loading for a reduced load with fast burning powder...the potential for a double charge is very great.
I don't know how a progressive press handles this potential for a double charge, but I do know that with single stage operation, viewing the charged cases with a flashlight is foolproof.

[Down South]

I loaded with a Rockchucker for about 37 years. I started high volume shooting so I bought a Dillon RL 550B. It works great. The learing curve ain't bad. Since then, I've bought a second RL 550B. One is set up for large primers and the other for small primers.
I still use the Rockchucker for my hunting rounds. I like to weigh every powder charge and do several inspections of the case through the reloading cycle for the hunting rounds.

I did buy a chepie Lee press a few weeks ago. I mounted it to a 2"X6"X3' for a portable press to C-clamp down on a picnic table where I stay at during the week to process brass with Military primer crimps.

[mdi]

i'll stand by my statement....do not buy a single satge press if you are going to do volume shooting, buy a progressive to start with.
if you are a hunter/low volume shooter, yes a single will work,

mike in co[/QUOTE]

And whil you're at it buy a range rod (to pound out the squibs from powderless ammo), and a bullet puller (for taking apart loads with the sideways or backward primers), maybe a new barrel (for when you touch off a round after the squib you didn't notice).

Personally, I prefer quality over quantity...

[1hole]

Mike: g,, i agree with most of wht you said, which is why the poster is on my ignore list. (sic)

Those who comment about their "ignore list" amuse me; guess it's intended to put someone in their place. Is there some emotional value in that ?? I prefer to stick to the OP's question as much as possible but sometimes..... it just ain't possible!

[David2011]

Here's my 2 cents worth, a series of random thoughts on my experiences with progressive loading. I hope it's on-topic.

For starters, anyone who thinks you don't have to pay as much attention loading on a progressive because you load the same round day in and day out is mistaken. You have a multitude of things to keep up with, mostly by feel and sound. If you hear or feel something unusual, you have to stop immediately and figure out what's wrong. You "simply" have to pay much closer attention at a much higher rate of speed to many more things. The reward is a lot of ammunition in a short amount of time. I recently timed myself on my Dillon XL650 which has a case feeder. I couldn't maintain this rate for long because of supplies running out but in two minutes I made 50 rounds. That average gets blown as soon as you have to replace primers. A typical average over several hundred rounds would be closer to 20 rounds per minute. With several primer tubes ready that can be maintained until the primer tubes are empty. With an assistant to keep primers in the tubes and brass in the casefeeder you can actually produce 1000-1200 in an hour. You will be tired. It's more an issue of concentration at that level for that long than the physical effort, but there is some effort expended at that rate.

The 650 has, to me, a vastly superior primer handling system. Recently Jimmy Mitchell to me that his 650s ran much smoother with the new design of CCI primers. I tried them and agree. The older CCIs kind of crunched as they went into the pockets. The new ones in the dark blue boxes go in smoother than any brand I've used which includes all of the major brands. I personally still prefer Federal primers for my slicked up revolvers with reduced hammer springs but the CCIs have been flawless in my STI with a standard mainspring which is the same as for any 1911/2011.

My first press was an RCBS JR2 purchased well used in the early '80s; still have it. Got my first Dillon, a 550B, in 1991; still have it. My total inventory is now 2 RCBS JRs, a Rock Chucker, Square Deal B, 550B and an XL650. The Sq Deal B only loads 9mm. I use a single stage press to correct little problems like a primer not coming free of the case when I'm loading on a progressive. Most of my rifle rounds are loaded on the Rock Chucker. I have 38 Super, .40 S&W, 45ACP, .380 ACP and .30-'06 capability for the 650 but as with many reloaders, it is almost always set up for on caliber, the .40 S&W which I use in IPSC competition.

The Rock Chucker became much more handy when I got the Hornady Lock-n-Load adapter and die bushings. Set the dies one time and they can be changed very easily. They hold their settings so they'er always ready to use.

The Dillon 550B gets changed regularly. It is much faster to change than the 650 and the caliber conversions are much less expensive than those for the 650. The 550 is used for .40, 9mm, .45ACP, .38/.357, .380 ACP, .45 Colt and anything else that uses the .45/ .30-'06 shellplate. Its priming system is a little cantankerous but it's obvious from the feel when it doesn't work right. It has to be kept very clean with no lube to work right. The 550 is the only press I've ever made a double charge with. Fortunately, it was a powder puff .45 ACP load and while I certainly noticed, there was no damage. It only happened once. It was with Winchester Super Target and a 200 grain cast boolit. I imagine that a heavier or jacket bullet might have made for a different outcome so I was lucky.

I noticed that a friend always left the handle down on his press. He only loaded .40 and used a 650. It was immediately obvious that with the handle down and the stage up, there was never any doubt as to what was going on at each stage. I started doing the same thing. It is far less ambiguous than leaving the stage down. Had I been using the handle down trick when stepping away from the machine at the time, it might have prevented my one double charge. I know two people who learned on Dillon 650s and are both "A" Class USPSA shooters with their reloads so it is possible to learn on a complex machine and produce quality ammunition. You can't make "A" Class with unreliable ammo.

It is hard to double charge or have an uncharged case on a Square Deal B or 650 beacuse of the auto indexing.

When I load .223 for an AR or .30-'06 for my Garand on the Dillon 550 I prep the cases befoer putting them in the progressive press. To prevent scratching dies, I tumble polish the brass, decap and size on a single stage press and polish again to remove the lube residue. For small batches I've found that lighter fluid or charcoal starter on a rag gets the cases clean with little effort. USe all precautions handling such flammable materials. I use Dillon or RCBS case lube; both come off easily with corn cob media. I like to keep separate media to remove the lube because it clogs the surface of the media quickly. For the Garand I prime separately. For the .223 I prime in the 550, with no sizing die present. I find that the loads are as good as my ability to shoot iron sights to 100 yd. If I want a little more accuracy I'll go back to weighed charges but honestly it's hard to see much difference between metered and weighed charges from the bench. Extreme spreads don't seem to be consistently tighter with weighed charges.

For what it's worth,
David