water hardening-does it work ?

[fatelk]

I've often wondered why Lee recommends 10% tin in the instructions with their bullet molds? I wasted some expensive solder when I first started casting, because I was following those instructions.

[HeavyMetal]

Perhaps I should clarifiy my statement, although it seems 44man has done a very good job explaining why Tin "does not harden lead".

By the way thanks 44man.

Back in the day, 1960-1970's, and through the early 90's all the gun writers claimed lead was the the material to add to lead to make it hard enough not to lead your bore. I haven't seen this particular fib repeated in the press recently but I have seen an increase in casting articles in gun mags that have not had a history of such writings so I expect that "fib" to raise it's ugly head soon!

Basic impression was Tin, added to lead, worked like the two components of JB Weld and made you cast boolits so hard they would never lead!

This "Fib" was repeated time and again by every gun hack in the world that wrote an article on casting or using cast boolits.

The rare exception to this were guys like Dean Grennell and John Zemenak who wrote very intersting articles on casting and alloy's. There were others but These two names jumped out of my memory this morning.

As 44man pointed out you can harden pure lead, a very little bit, by adding Tin but you have to add a lot of it.

Because of this I long ago felt the easy answer for a rookie caster was to simply say no to Tin as a hardening agent! I then explain why and what he does need to harden his boolits when he actually needs to!

Because most rookie casters seem to jump on the same band wagon: If the boolit leads the bore it must not be hard enough!

There are many more issue that cause leading than boolit hardness!

Now this isn't to say that Tin does not have a place in casting, it most certainly does, but I think the more experienced casters, when asked, have the responsibility to give an answer that actually gets the end user the results he wants.

I think "splitting hairs" over the minor amount of hardening you can actually get out of a Tin Lead alloy isn't the answer I want to give someone just getting started.

We don't need to make this any more confusing than it already is.

So once again here is my answer to anyone that asks about Tin as a hardener for Lead:

1. It doesn't work that way!
2. Tin should be used to help flow and is an aid to fill out!
3. No more than 2% should be added to any alloy.
4. Each Gun may require a different alloy,size or lube depending on caliber and power level.
5. Antimony is the hardening agent of choice Trace amounts of Arsinic will also help.
6. An easy source of Antimony used to be clip on wheel weights. This source is drying up.
7. This is the most important part, none of his is set in concrete!

Casting is an Art Form not rocket sience! Every one learns at thier own pace and are ruled by what thier guns like.

These are my opinions and no one elses and may be ignored as one wish's!

[RobS]

HeavyMetal:

You can try as you may, but your opening post on this thread that “tin does not harden lead” is still dead wrong and it's plain to see you are not going to admit anything in your posts as you will not be proven otherwise.

The FACTS:
Pure Lead= 5 BHN
1:40= 8 BHN
1:30= 9 BHN
1:20= 10 BHN
1:10= 11 BHN

Straight clip on WW on Average= 12 BHN
1/2-1% tin, 2-3% antimony,
96-7.25% lead, 1/4% arsenic

All info common knowledge: a nice site to look at for a reference- http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

With a 1:10 lead/tin alloy a person can take pure lead and increase its hardness by over 50%............ That is definitely hardening an alloy. Now, please explain to every new caster that tin does not harden lead.

When examining a lead/tin alloy and tins ability to harden pure lead:
NO it is not about costing more $$$$
NO it is not about mold fill out
NO it is not that antimony will harden more or easier per %
NO it is not about what a firearm or size of the bullet needed by a certain mix of alloy
NO it is not about what is a better choice in regards to hardening a certain alloy
NO it is not about stamping out an old myth
NO it is not about being an art form

The issue here is Tin Does harden lead...........FACT..........and it is up to each his own to use it for an intended purpose or not. Your statements are not accurate for the new caster in regards to facts but do have merit however in that a person can find a less expensive route to acquiring a bullet that is harder than pure lead.

With the facts out there.........I hardly ever use tin.............its costs offset the need in all practical uses when there are other means. I too see it more as a way to have better mold fill out and currently don't have a mold that requires the need for tin as they all have good fill out without it so using a less expensive direction to casting (straight WW's) makes much more economical sense.

[damron g]

"With a 1:10 lead/tin alloy a person can take pure lead and increase its hardness by over 50%............ That is definitely hardening an alloy. Now, please explain to every new caster that tin does not harden lead."

Well said.No more needs to be added i believe.

George

[243winxb]

Antimony is needed with your lead to oven heat treat. Without some tin, your bullet will lead the barrel. A proper alloy, air cooled is the way to go. IMO

Always used pure lead for my projects but heard about water hardening the bullet to increase hardness instead of adding tin.

Pure lead is about a bhn of about 5 to 7 can i jump this up to 10 or 12 with water hardening.

Any other ideas would be appreciated.

Mountain mike

[HeavyMetal]

O.K. let's try this one more time: RobS is correct and Tin will harden lead a small amount if enough is added.

RobS proudly points out the 50% increase between "pure" lead and a 1 to10 lead / tin alloy.

Again RobS is correct but ya gotta love how math bends things! That 50% "harder" not only cost a bunch of money, ( by the way anyone notice RobS writing that he did not use Tin to harden his alloy because of cost!), but it really only netted him 5 to 6 BHN points!

News Flash: I can net 5 to 8 BHN water quenching clip on wheel weights without adding any tin. Big plus is that this BHN "bump" is free!

Now in a "Test Lab" enviroment with pure lead and tin I have no doubt the "magic" 50% harder will show up in the 1 to 10 alloy you make every time!

However in the real world scrap Lead, range scrap and wheel weights , both clip on and stick on types, have become so diluted that the BHN of an average "Lead" purchase is all over the place. I had some go 6 BHN other batch's go to 7 OR 8 BHN. The reality of that is your Tin addition now only nets you 2 to 3 BHN, maybe. Whats the percentage of hardness then? And at what cost?

Let's face it salvage lead and wheel weights are what most of us cast with, although with wheel weights now on the "Endangered Species" list more of us will be buying "pre mixed" alloys wether we want to or not, so most of us are making "educated guess's" as to the real content of our alloy is.

Be that as it may be RobS has also stated he uses other means to achieve harder boolits without using Tin. Which was the general direction my original post was pointing the OP.

Honestly I don't know what the beef is.

If RobS needs me to tell the world that he is correct about Tin hardening lead: Consider it done!

If he needs me to print a retraction of my statement he'd best not hold his breath.

Because in the real world of turkey fryer smelting, ( ya thats really the wrong word but thats "slang" for ya) Coleman stove casting , searching weekends to find a bucket of "real" wheel weights and having a "Cold One" to celibrate any success ( including spelling) I will continue to tell people that in the real world Tin will not harden lead!

[cbrick]

RobS is right but he didn't go far enough. The hardest a lead and tin alloy can be is 17 BHN. Nope, not a typo . . . 17 BHN.

63% tin and 37% lead (60/40 solder) is 17 BHN.

A good bullet alloy? I seriously doubt it, I see horrendous leading but your calculator will tell you how much is 2% of your alloy.

Rick

[RobS]

I don't need a retraction and didn’t ask for one.............the words "never" sticks in a person’s crawl that's all. In the world we live in an absolute statement as such is simply impractical and even more so with casting and reloading. Speaking of facts and talking about the "Real World" aspects to casting are two different entities in themselves as well. Let there be said, I have no "beef" with you HeavyMetal although your statement did make me chuckle a bit. It just sounds funny.............say it to yourself once and you'll probably laugh too. "What's your beef with me"?

[damron g]

"I will continue to tell people that in the real world Tin will not harden lead!"

I'll back RobS on this one, that statement is not true and never will be.

"I had some go 6 BHN other batch's go to 7 OR 8 BHN"

I doubt any of our $100 non laboratory tools can tell 1 BHN apart accurately .And if it was truly 8BHN then it had tin (or something else)in it!! And while most testers cant tell exact BHN they tell the difference between their own BHN readings. Tin DOES harden lead. Try testing it it sometime.



Best example of your argument-

"You'll NEVER loose weight by eating less"

You would argue

"Running 15 miles a day is more effective and you can eat all you want"

Your conclusion-

"dieting doesn't work".

The first statement in still false no matter how many sentences you write.

George

[lwknight]

Why not just follow the commercial examples?
Tin is great
Tin is a needful thing. But only in moderation is it economical.
Tin will definately harden lead and it takes a lot of it do do anything significant.
A small amount of antimony will do what a lot of expensive tin will do in this regard.

Tin is not the peferred or most efficient hardener and you will lose your sectional density
that makes lead great fot boolits in the first place if you use a lot of tin as a hardener that cannot ever compare to what a little antimony can do.

And you guys should listen to RobS on this one.

[Hondo Lane]

Always used pure lead for my projects but heard about water hardening the bullet to increase hardness instead of adding tin.

Pure lead is about a bhn of about 5 to 7 can i jump this up to 10 or 12 with water hardening.

Any other ideas would be appreciated.

Mountain mike

I think we have got away from the original question here so Mountain Mike heres my $.02 worth. I do believe water quenching does harden the outside of the bullet some what. I have been doing it for several years and if nothing else by dropping hot bullets into a pail of water you don't have any hot bullets rolling around. I am currently waiting for a hardness tester so I can satisfy my own curiosity...HL...

[RobS]

I do believe water quenching does harden the outside of the bullet some what. I have been doing it for several years and if nothing else by dropping hot bullets into a pail of water you don't have any hot bullets rolling around. I am currently waiting for a hardness tester so I can satisfy my own curiosity...HL...

When you receive your hardness tester you'll be surprised to say the least with those water quenched bullets...............if they are bullets cast with antimony that is, such as WW’s.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have good success with my smelting and casting. I gather whatever ww's I can get my paws on. I include the stick on flat weights also. I do not add anything to my alloys.

I smelt with the thermometer. I never let the dutch oven get over 700 degress. Once the melt gets to that temperature everything on top gets skimmed off.

Then the fluxing begins. I probably overflux but since I use Pat Marlins CFF I am not worried about the cost. I stir it in deep after it burns down to ashes. The stuff caught under the alloy doesn't bother me since I use a Rowell ladle to remove the alloy to the ingot moulds.

Once my ingots are done I put them away and when I cast I flux again with wax or whatever is at hand. Not CFF. Now I cast with the bottom pour Lee 4-20 and I am concerned about the stuff stuck at the bottom of the pot. I do not want that stuff in my boolits. I stir briskly and make sure the bottom and sides of the pot are scraped clean.

I bring my alloy up to 775 or higher before I cast a boolit and it is clean and a decent alloy and I water quench all my boolits. An oily residue of the wax flux keeps the oxidation levels down and doesn't offend me at all. Since I cast fast some of them are kinda soft when they hit the water. They cool down quick and get harder with age. I usually size them if necessary within one day and this makes the job easier for me. Once sized I coat them with Corn Starch to preserve them and make the reloading process less messy.

Now I then store my boolits in plastic containers for future assembly into rounds. They are kept dust and dirt free and when handled do not stick to the fingers or anything else.

When I get into a casting session I usually go through 50 # or more of alloy. There is no point to setting up to cast unless you cast a buncha boolits. I will work with 3 or more molds during one session and end up with a selection of boolits in the 5 gallon water bucket.

The next day after removing from the water and drying off I separate the different boolits and get down to sizing. This is done to make the job easier as they will harden some over time.

I have some boolits stored around here that are over 5 years old and I have yet to load them. They do not deteriorate with age although the same cannot be said of the brass. Some of the tumble cleaned stuff needs a polishing prior to reloading only for the tarnishing received over time even if kept in airtight plastic containers.

[pcmacd]

Tin does so little for hardening it is a waste of money. Pure can NOT be hardened by any means. You need tin, antimony and a trace of arsenic. The amount of antimony will do more to change hardness then anything else.

Of BLEEPING course, pure lead can be hardened!!! How do you think they make linotype or foundry type?

I got my lead smarts from a guy named Arthur Greene who used to have a type metal business in Beverly Hills, CA; Arthur is long gone. I can scan in and post his guidance sheets if anybody would care to see them, but they are rather elementary.

Tin does harden led a bit. Nothing like antimony does. Arthur tells me that pure antimony is a screaming ***** to get into lead; it requires extraordinarily high heat and specific fluxes. Most bullet casters use a lead alloy with lots of antimony (and usually some tin) in it to boost the antimony content of their melt.

Type metals in the 1990s when I started casting bullets were readily available as printers switched from the Guttenberg style presses to more modern offset and such methods. Type metals are a rare bird nowadays.

I've still over 150# of Foundry Type from Grene, which is 15% tin and 23% antimony. 1:9 range salvage to FT will get you 2% tin and 3% antimony added to your melt assuming one half percent each of tin and antimony in the range salvage. Pure lead will get you 1.5% tin and 2.3% antimony added to the melt. This composition casts like a dream @700F and is sufficient for anything short of a magnum load w/o lots of leading.

Arthur had two different Masters Degrees in metallurgy, so you can take what Arthur had to say to the freaking bank!

[pcmacd]

You need to read Glenn Fryxell's PDF book on bullet casting - he is a CHEMIST by trade. By scrapping everthing off the top of the melt, you are trashing TIN OXIDE - which has LOTS OF TIN IN IT!!!!

You want to use WAX or better yet, SAWDUST as a flux, which will turn the tin oxide back into elemental tin in your melt.

Stir it well.

Stir it well.

Stir it well.

Don't use the borax based fluxes until you have used LOTS OF CARBON BASED flux on your melt. These borax fluxes are good at removing everything in your melt but lead, meaning they take out the tin and antimony oxides, too! They won't remove tin or antimony in solution, but the borax fluxes will remove tin or antimony oxide floating atop the melt. Sawdust REDUCES the tin/antimony oxides to elemental tin/antimony, leaving the slag atop the melt.

Work outside or get a giant fan in front of and blowing out your window, and don't worry about what the sawdust might have in it.

Again, see Fryxell's PDF. It used to be on LASC.us, but that site has gone t**ts up. I have a copy in case anybody wants it.

PM me.

[BJung]

Whoa. I've been scrapping off a lot of silver colored slag from my initial range scrap melt and more so from the ingots that I cast from it. From two ingots I'd remove a large tablespoon scoop of it. I've avoided fluxing my lead because it made too much smoke for the neighborhood. Well tomorrow I'll visit a woodshop I know off and retrieve some sawdust. Would a wooden chopstick stirred in the mix work?

As for hardening a lead bullet by water dropping it, doesn't the lead have to be an alloy with some tin and antinomy? I thought pure lead doesn't temper well?

Last, simple way of explaining tin and antinomy in an alloy is this. Please comment if I'm close. If lead was like clay, it would expand and then splatter if thrown with too much force. To hold it together, tin is added. Looking at photos, I liken this to straw. And, with enough force, the straw helps hold the clay together. If shaped like a bullet, it could mushroom under higher velocities. Yet to make lead alloy stronger, we add antinomy. I liken this to adding small branches to the straw/clay mix. Just antinomy and clay or antinomy with little straw will increase strength but too much and the branches would break and the clay alloy would shatter. That's why straw is needed. And in lead alloys, that's why tin is needed.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have always heard antimony was needed to be part of the alloy, if you wanted to harden boolits water quenching them.
I drop all mine into a full five gallon bucket of water. I’m not looking to harden, but have had too many bad experiences with boolits rolling into each other and getting deformed when dropped on towels. When I drop in water, they are hard by the time they reach the bottom.

[charlie b]

Read these. Short answer. Lead or lead-tin alloy will not harden when quenched. Antimony and/or arsenic are needed (and not much) for water quenching to work. Water quenched bullets change hardness over time (look up the curves). COWW are a good base for water quenching. The articles have information about specific alloys and such.

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[ioon44]

Another thing to consider is the fact that hardness from water dropping is only temporary and they will return to the alloy hardness after a year or more.
I had some bullets I cast in the 1990's that were 22 BHN water dropped, about 10 years ago I tested them, and they were 15 BHN, the original alloy hardness.

[mehavey]

But..... (drumroll please)

I've never needed anything harder than Lym#2 (15) for any practical application -- ever.
(in fact people get in far more trouble when size is not "perfect" using so-called "superhards"
added benefit: Lym#2 is time stable.

...and PC now makes even Lym#2 unnecessary approaching most higher velocity scenarios.