I think we're at the core of it now, aren't we?Originally Posted by Alex Hamilton
The OP asked about leading in Glocks. I take it you've never shot one. Perhaps never even touched one.
Were I there, I'd be thinking it was time for another revolution....
But the topic in this thread is leading in Glocks, so I'll leave it at that.
Cheerio!
I used to shoot lead almost exclusively out of my first gen G17. I didn't even clean it for the first 2000rds or so. I bought a replacement bbl after reading all the doom & gloom about lead in a Glcok bbl. A LE buddy of mine & I shot 1000s of lead loads in his G21, it did get cleaned pretty regularly, as it was his duty weapon, but it also suffered no ills. IMO, fit the bullet poperly to the bore, clean every 100-200rds & stay off the max loads, it should work.
Glocks are no different from other handguns and the basic principles apply. Microgrove rifling v. Ballard rifling or polygonal as in Whitworth, they can all shoot lead bullets without leading, provided the bullet fits and alloy is appropriate to pressure/velocity.I think we're at the core of it now, aren't we?
The OP asked about leading in Glocks. I take it you've never shot one. Perhaps never even touched one.
Were I there, I'd be thinking it was time for another revolution....
But the topic in this thread is leading in Glocks, so I'll leave it at that.
Cheerio!
You are right! I have never shot a Glock because even when we were allowed to own handguns it was only for target shooting and Glocks were not good enough for that.
Yes, indeed all the basic principles apply. However, polygonal rifling takes to lead boolits differently than Ballard. This is pretty well known amongst those that shoot pistols. I can see why you might not have any experience base there. It is, after all, why the OP posted his question in the first place.
Wow! Never seen blood so blue!
When it rains does it fall in your nostrils?
I shoot lotsa targets with Glocks, and the holes look just the same as any other pistol shooter. Course, you don't shoot pistols, do ya?
Too bad about that!
Hey I can drive my car 125mph and have no problems most of the time.It's those other time that cost you.If your going to shoot lead in a gun with polygonal rifling and with an unsupported chamber you may have no problems. Then again why not buy a bar sto barrel with cut rifle ing and a supported chamber and not have to here I TOLD YOU SO you could shoot 2000000000
rounds with no problem then again the next one could be an I TOLD YOU SO
If the chamber and case dimension allow bullets sized to be exactly the same or slightly larger than the measurement "corner to corner" of the bore, you will not get leading in a Glock. That is perfectly possible and other people have posted replies in this thread to say soWith respect, I think we are talking of different type of target shooting. You need to put all your shots into a 2" circle at 25 metres and you have to do it with one handed hold. It started with Colt Gold Cup in 45ACP and later with S&W Mod.51. Both were later outgunned with pistols in 32S&WLong, like Walther GSP, Hammerli, Unique and others. I cannot own any of them, but I still shoot air pistol and I am sending you a picture in the attachment. It is an air pistol, but the requirements are still the same. Anatomical grip must fit your hand exactly; trigger must be adjustable for let off, reach; cant and the length of pull and the sights are micro-adjustable. In this "sport" whilst it lasted here, having a load that leaded "just a little" would mean you loose! Glock has many good features as millitary/defensive pistol, but in international shooting scene it does not even beging to compare.
Wow! Never seen blood so blue!
When it rains does it fall in your nostrils?
I shoot lotsa targets with Glocks, and the holes look just the same as any other pistol shooter. Course, you don't shoot pistols, do ya?
Too bad about that!
This does not mean anything to me! Is it meant to be some kind of insult and is that necessary?When it rains does it fall in your nostrils?
I have competed in USPSA since 1986 and for most of those years I shot a Glock 21. I cast 200gr semi wad cutters and loaded them up to make major at close to 900fps with 700x and Red Dot. I never changed the barrel and had no leading problems at all. I'd get a very small trace of lead smear near the chamber and it brushed out without any problem. Glock replaced the barrel once for me due to a brain fart on an indoor range. The guy next to me was shooting a 357magnum that spit lead sideways more than forward. I was somewhat rattled by this and had a squib load lodge a bullet just in front of the chamber. Angry at what I thought was a misfire I did a "tap rack bang" drill and drove both slugs into the "A" zone at 25 feet. I shot a match with that slightly bulged barrel that weekend and then sent the G21 to Georgia for Glock to fix it. They replaced the barrel and sent it back. Not the guns fault in any way whatsoever. I was shooting 265gr kieth type cast boolits at the time left over from my buddies Smith 4516 which needed the heavier boolit to make major in the short barrel.
I PM'd ya. I didn't see the OP ask about that style of target shooting or air pistols. I'm going to refrain from further hijacking the thread.
Thank you for that message, Fred. I have a problem convincing HammerMTB that when it comes to basic principles of reloading cast lead bullets Glocks are no different from other pistols. Good cast lead loads do not lead at all and when you have developed such a load barrel cleaning is optional.
I have a Winchester Trapper in 357Mag. and I have never put a phophor bronze brush though the barrel since I bought it in 1996 - probably over 10,000 rounds. I wipe the rifle with oily patch and clean the action but not the barrel.
Thank you marty for confirming what I have said earlier: A small trace of lead after many shots is not uncommon, nor cause to hunt the "Holy Grail" of zero leading following extended use. I sometimes wonder if reports of zero leading are true, or simply that very small amounts of lead are hard to see and identify, and many will clean their bbl and not even know they removed traces of lead.
I seem to have trouble convincing Alex Hamilton that just because there is one report of no leading at all, is not cause to determine that must be the only proper way. Just like the only target shooting is not one-handed in slow, timed, and rapid fire.
for me, I've had enough of trading jabs with Alex, and he may have the last word. As one who has never shot a Glock- EVER- he must know quite a bit about it.
I was not trading jabs with anyone! You have a trace of leading in your Glock and you are desperate to proove that that is normal. Why not ask people to vote whether it is normal not to be able to speak Japanese. If the target audience is in USA the results will "prove" that it is normal not to be able to speak Japanese!
If one shooter on this forum does not get any leading whatsoever, you should be trying to learn from his experience rather than dicredit what he says or try to ram your opinions down everybody's throat. Excellence has always been the domain of a small minority, regrettably, and people like you stand in the way of progress and learning and insist of pulling everyone down to their level!
I have never driven or owned a Cadillac, but I know that it is totally useless for Formula One motor racing. And that is as offensive to Cadillac owners as it is to say that Glocks are not good enough for ISSF and ISU shooting!????
As a direct result of your incessant badgering we spent a lot of time on this subject without helping the starter of this thread at all. He now knows that many people get leading (and that is apparently normal) and a small minority do not get any at all (and they are probably lying), but he has not learned what causes leading nor how to prevent it!!
Well done HammerMTB! You are a time waster!
Alright guys enough of the bickering. Y'all were both putting out good info until the jabs started. I have had guns that will either lead or not depending on the boolit, lube and / or powder. Just a simple change of one element sent the works down the drain. The latest one in particular was same boolit and lube but different powder. Just because people have found a load that has no leading in their rifle / pistol does not mean they have never had leading in that particular pistol or rifle.
Robert
Robert
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
- Albert Camus -
Hi, Tech413,
The primary cause of leading is gas cutting because the bullet is too small. High pressure gas rips molecules of lead off the side of the bullet and deposits them in front of the bullet where they are "ironed" into the bore by the passing projectile.
The bullet expands a little under pressure and once it has gone an inch or so down the bore it obturates persfectly and the leading stops. But, if you continue shooting the leading will be spread right up to the muzzle by the passing bullets. Accuracy will fall off long before this stage is reached.
There are no hard and fast rules as regards exactly how much larger the bullet should be than the groove size of the barrel (corner to corner measurement in your case), but if I were in your shoes I would go for .357" sizing die for your Star.
Contrary to what you have heard, a faster powder might be better because the bullet will receive a sharper "kick" at start up and if there any small gaps left it will bump up to obturate sooner.
Another common cause of leading is high velocity and the enormous torque applied to the bullet by conventional rifling. Basically, the leading edges of the lands wear alloy and consequently gaps appear at the trailing edges and gas cutting starts. To cure this problem you need harder alloy and, if that does not cure it, gas check. Glocks with their polygonal rifling are kinder to cast lead bullets because the torque is imparted over a larger area of the bullet. This kind of leading will appear midway down the bore or even just at the muzzle. I doubt that you will get it, but if you do try reducing velocity first.
And if you still get slight leading, please do not assume that that is "normal" and that nothing can be done about it. Let us know how you get on and we will take it from there.
Alex
Robert,
At least you have been lucky not to get leading sometimes. In my long bullet casting "career" I have loaded 25ACP, 32ACP 38Spl/357M, 9mm, 45ACP and I am still loading for 308Win., 303Brit., 310Cadet and 7.62X54R Mosin-Nagant. The only handgun that did not lead from day one was Colt Gold Cup in 45ACP. The others all did. In those days, before computers and online forums it was not possible to exchange information, so it was a case of suffering alone and in silence and endless experimentation.
Even nowadays the majority of cast bullet shooters get small amount of leading, especially those that buy commercially cast bullets. Tailoring each load to a specific firearm requires considerable commitment in time, equipment and knowhow that many are not prepared to make.
Alex
Alex,
I guess I should clarify. I always get leading at some point. Some might make it way more than 100 rounds and some may not. In a light 45-70 I may never see any or anything that may be considered significant because I won't shoot a lot of rounds at one sitting. Some lead with less shots than others. I have a RF rifle that has maybe 10,000 rounds down range and the barrel has only been cleaned twice (the action a hundred times).
My S&W 625 chambered in 460 Rowland (Clark Custom) never leads with the RCBS 300 gr SWCGC, LARS red lubed over 12 grns of AA #7 for any amount of boolits I want to shoot but on the other hand I have another gun that is just plain kicking my ass.
I have found that changing any one component or combination of components will change many things including the amount of shots I can shoot between cleanings but I am a firm believer that leading is a combination of barrel finish, boolit fit, lube, speed, temperature, load and of course a host of other things that I have not mentioned.
Robert
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
- Albert Camus -
have any of you tried lapping a factory glock barrel?
Well I know it's been a while since I first drug this topic up. I've been busy farming and haven't had time to actually try loading. I've been collecting equipment over the last few months. I got a new Dillon press and a Star lube-sizer.
Today I actually had the chance to try out the new equipment and load some rounds.
Cast 2 parts wheel weights to 1 part pure lead in lee 356-125-2R tested at about 12 BHN. Sized to .356 and lubed with 50/50 alox/beeswax on 3 gr. of Red Dot. Loaded 200 rounds but no chance to shoot yet. Range report to follow.
Thanks for all your input
Adam
"In all you do, do it well, because life's too short to be a hack!"-ac
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."- John F. Kennedy
"Dogs will be dogs but men must choose to be men."
Just get a wolf barrel and swap the stock one out. I got a compensated one for my m36 and love it for lead bullets.
Well, if you look in the stickied thread in the pistols and handcannons forum, there's a long thread there about "the truth of Glocks and cast" or something similar.
In that thread I commented about how I have fired over 5000 rounds of lead-bullet handloads through my early 2nd-Gen. G-17 with no problems - very little in the way of jams and no apparent leading or loss of accuracy. I've also fired a significant number (but no where near 5000 without a cleaning) in my G-21 (45ACP) Glock.
I also posted that a failure analysis engineer from a large firm that has run tests on blown-up Glocks reported in his tests that when he fired cast lead in either a 40 or 45 (can't remember which right now), he was getting readings from his chrono that demonstrated a shot-by-shot increase in pressure after only 100-200 rounds of lead. He used this data to demonstrate to Glock's satisfaction that lead in a polygonal bore (or at least Glock's polygonal bore) is no good. Hence, the warning they've published for 20 years or so stating "NO LEAD BULLETS or handloads" to be fired in their firearms, or the warranty is void...
I have considerable respect for my engineer friend, and have never resolved to my own satisfaction why and how his results differed from mine so badly. It is apparent from the responses in this thread that other people have the same issues -- some have complete success and no problems, while others suffer problems no matter what adjustments they make to their boolits, loads, or guns...
I did think of a couple things that result in still no hard-and-fast answers, but more questions which need to be settled.
First off, I wonder if there is a difference between some barrels? (Are some harder, have slightly different geometry to the poly-rifling, or have rougher/smoother bore surfaces?) If so, this could explain the differences people are having.
Secondly, in my own experience, I know both the early G-17 and the later G-21 I shoot a lot of cast from, have had a LOT of rounds through them. The G-17 was my first Glock, purchased around 1990, and I traded it from another officer who had taken it to the academy and then through the transition to semi-auto pistol classes we had back then. He estimated he had fired roughly 5000-8000 rounds through it before I bought. All of those rounds were jacketed. My G-21 my wife bought for me off an officer she works with, and he had used it as his sidearm for a few years, shooting only jacketed through it. I then started carrying it and using it only with jacketed for awhile, before trying the cast in it. It has no where near the rounds through it the G-17 did, but I'm wondering if all this shooting with jacketed is smoothing/burnishing the barrel which reduces the problems with cast? Which then dovetails right into 82d ABN's question below:
Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith
E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.
Ok guys,
Went to the range yesterday, put the first 25 rounds through my glock, removing and inspecting the barrel after every 5. Showed no signs of leading. I put 140 rounds through it, checking often. Disassembled at the range, there is no lead in the barrel!!!
I'm satisfied with how everything turned out and I found that the cast rounds were more accurate than the factory rounds that I have been shooting. The only complaint I have is the smoke and how dirty it was but its a small price to pay for cheap ammo.
Does anyone have any suggestions for lube that might smoke less? I'm using the 50/50 beeswax/alox and it works great, just smokes alot.
Thanks so much to everyone with positive input, and thanks to the forum for helping me get started.
"In all you do, do it well, because life's too short to be a hack!"-ac
"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."- John F. Kennedy
"Dogs will be dogs but men must choose to be men."
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