6.5 practice cast bullet

[Nrut]

Hello..... I have a Model 7 .260 Rem rifle that I would like to use for practicing snap shooting at a steel target at around 100 yds or so....the vel would be in the 1800-2000 fps range.......Althought I have been casting since the mid 80's I don't own a 6.5 mold.....any suggestions?....second questions does any one out there use a 6.5 for hunting deer and blackbear with cast bullets and if so what do you find that works best....load wise & bullet wise...I have access to a LBT softnose caster if that helps......thanks for any info that you may share.....cheers...mic

[Oldfeller]

Nrut,

The pain-free way to deal with your 6.5mm shooting .260 rifle is to simply feed it the jacketed bullet that it happens to like the best.

If you are masochistic, get yourself a 6.5 cast bullet mold of ANY kind cast some and join the Karlina Cast Therapy Group that meets every few weeks right here on this same bat-channel.

Karlina, she will drive you crazy and make you puke green pea soup out of your nostrils. She just got two more into her evil clutches just this past few days ago -- had them speaking in tounges to each other with their heads spinning around all backwards (opposite twist rates too).

People who shoot 6.5mm cast bullets need (for mild cases) a psychatrist and for advanced cases, they need an exorcist.

Ask Father Jumptrap or Waksupi or Sundog or Mavin or Buckshot -- shooting cast 6.5 bullets (especially out of a Karlina) isn't for alter-boys. If you can't stand the shock of sometimes seeing your bullets disappear off the entire target backstop, don't even talk about speeds over 1,650 - 1,750 fps.

Some folks here have gotten a bad case of Karlina and have made up multiple cast bullet molds trying to whip her. One crazy person even stuck steel reinforcing rods inside a long 6.5 bullet in an attempt to get them to fly straight. He also cut down some to the relative length of a .22 short, machining them compusively on all surfaces except the bottoms of the lube grooves and weight sorting them to "half a grain" sort lots. That one may never recover ....

There are some poor sick crippled people on this list because of Karlina.

Right now all these poor sick addicts are awaiting a new specialty mold to arrive, an attempt at a bullet that may be short enough to pass through the Bermuda Triangle style evil space warp that exists at the muzzle of a Swedish Mauser. This vessel of their hopes is called the 6.5 Kurtz.

Do you really have the courage to go into a mentally stressful situation that would make Hawkeye Pierce give up alchohol and wimmin, shave his head and weep?

Are you that crazy?

Oldfeller

[JBMauser]

I have had a similar thought about the 6.5 Swede but I have been around enough to have heard that going down that path is a excercise in pain and suffering. I don't ever recall anyone with success with cast bullets with those skinny pills. Has anyone had success with the 7.62x39 Soviet = 1 in 7.5" twist rate which is the only other rifle with such a fast twist? I do not own any communist sheet metal semi autos. I do own a bolt gun in 7.62x54r and have some yet to be fired cast in it. should not be a problem. I have read of chamber inserts for the short communist round for cheap shooting in .30cals. Any comments on the twist rate is that the swedes "bug- a -boo" Thanks, JB

[45 2.1]

A really poor description of the events. Seriously, if you follow the rules the rifle puts forth, they can shoot and do it pretty well, just look at what Buckshot did with a seriously undersize bullet. Thats why he's buying two molds.

[waksupi]

You are being optimistic with your velocity, if you have fast twist.
I've killed a couple bucks with the 6.5 Swede. Velocity around 1700 fps. I was using a Lyman 160 gr. bullet at the time, and bumped the nose up as fat as I could get it. Aircooled WW's. With a well placed shot, the deer would pretty much stay where they were, and after a few seconds, peacefully lie down. One even went back to feeding until it's knees buckled. These shots at under 50 yards.
The 6.5 has plenty of penetration, but placement is important. The autopsies showed this load would make a hole about 1.5" across when shot through the lungs. One that hit the liver shattered it into a star shape, with the wound extending four to five inches across.

[StarMetal]

Buckshot for everyone's information tried to help find a bullet my 260 would like. We talked in depth on the phone about it and about the 6.5 Swede. Buckshot said the same thing Oldfeller said here, to keep the velocity down below 1700 fps in the Swede. Buckshot HAS NOT had great success with the 6.5 Swede in the higher velocities. I believe the highest he obtained was maybe 1900 fps. If it takes a superior alloy to get the Swede to shoot, then it defeats the purpose of cast bullets, although that superior alloy is cast also. For that matter one could concider a jacketed bullet a superior alloy, except it's not cast. To further fuel the fire we can shoot zinc cast bullets out of any rifle at high velocities with very good accuracy. Let's see someone do it with WW's or #2 alloy, at high velocity, with accuracy.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Ok, I'll be serious. For a few minutes anyway.

The .264" bore size is blessed with a twist rate that will totally stabilize long 140-160 grain jacketed bullets. The combo of long skinny CAST bullets travelling quickly down fast twist rate tubes makes this mil-surp particularly challenging for normal cast bullet useages.

Long full weight cast bullets have a speed limit -- 1,650 is a safe top speed for long heavy cast bullets. Beagel made 1,900 with his 9 twist tube with good accuracy. Buckshot did similar, but was shooting at 50 yards, so Beagle keeps top speed accuracy honors for long bullets at 100 yards. Sundog and Maven have both posted good 1,650 rate groups in the past, so the long ones will go 1,650 if cajoled correctly. I can even do it on occasion.

The 170 grain cruse missile is a deady hunting bullet at this 1,650 speed range and because of its excellent BC it maintains that deadly hunting ability out to the point you really can't dope out the vertical drop any more. It would penetrate a deer butt to antlers if you shot one that way at any reasonable distance (or unreasonable as the case may be if you could just dope out the drop).

As the bullets get shorter and lighter, the speed limit goes up some. We are currently building a light plinker bullet mold (6.5 Kurtz) that may be able to reliably break 2,050 fps with good accuracy. This speed is important as that speed in a Obendorf Swede is turning 200,000 rpm and it qualifies for Dan's Contest. Somebody is going to take that prize .....

Take that same 120 grain slug and pop a deer sideways with an air-dropped WW bullet and you will get a good big exit wound with a lot of expansion on the slug. Still a deer killing bullet, just not ass to antlers like the cruse missile could do.

Now, about Karlina being able to make good people act crazy -- I rest my case. Karlina has worked her evil magic on at least two of our otherwise sensible members just very recently. I have EARNED THE RIGHT to say Karlina has evil juju magic BTW, she has worked it on me too.

It was me what did the steel cored super slugs and machined the wee-bitty all machined sluglets, so I can poke fun at myself all I want to. Everybody knows I'm Karlina demential anyway. Jumptrap can tell you all about it as he is a recovering Karlina addict himself, except he is too retiring and soft-spoken to actually say anything.

<g>

Oldfeller

[swheeler]

Nrut: I personally have not tried a 260 Rem, but have tried cast in the 6.5 Swede M96, and then only one bullet, the 170 Oldfeller. I'm guessing that the Remington has a 1 in 9 twist barrel which could make it alot easier to work up a cast load, compared to the 7.5 inch of the Swede. Although Joe has a rechambered Arisaka, which has a 9" twist, and as he said, couldn't find a load that worked worth a hoot! Good luck!
Scooter

[StarMetal]

swheeler is right. I have an Arisaka rebarreled to 260 Rem. With jacketed it stays under 3/4 inch at 100 yards. I haven't found a cast that I'm satisfied with for it yet. Now my groups are about 2 to 3 inches at 100 yards. To me, a rifle with a 3x9 scope, off a benchrest, sandbagged and all, with a decent trigger....that isn't acceptable to me. I have quite a few other scoped rifles that actually shoot cast better then jacketed at high velocity. My CZ 30-06 and Sako 7mm-08 will literaly cut holes with cast. I don't expect my 260 to do that, but if it shot say 1 1/2 inch consistantly, I'd be satisfied. I shot some of Oldfellers 170 gr cruisemissiles and if I got too low a velocity they keyholed. At higher velocities they showed some promise, but the consistantly wasn't there. They would start a cluster, then start flying. Now the throat on my 260 is very very tight. In fact Buckshot sent me some of his Lyman mould cast bullets and he sized them at .268 I believe and they wouldn't fit the gun, plus they were too fat for the bore. My bore slugs .264 right on the button and the throat isn't too much bigger. I did lenghten the throat with a throat reamer because I couldn't even load a short jacketed bullet out very far. The Arisaka is a long action for a 260 Rem and I could take advantage of that by loading the bullets out farther. I shot a deer with it last season with a jacketed bullet and put it away, but now all this talk I think it's time to bring it out again. As swheeler said my rifle has a 9 in twist. It shoot be able to shoot cast pretty good.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............Nrut, all rifles are different beasts so a bit of tinkering is necessary to begin with. Even a M94 Win in the good ole 30-30 may be a bit cranky at first. So now.............

All my experience with the 6.5 has been with the Swede and a tiny dab with an Italian Carcano. The problem lies pretty much with the twist. So far as I'm concerned and what I've seen in 3 fast twist rifles (.444 Marlin 14", 375-'06-12", and the two 6.5's 7.8") is that it does not treat cast well. Why it's so is a topic for another thread.

Rather then relate all the heartache, headache, gas and heartburn I went through, I'll just say that your best and most CONSISTANT accuracy will be found at most anywhere from 1200 to 1700 fps. The reason for the caps is that I have had a couple really good groups at a bit over 1800 fps. But you cannot count on it.

There is nothing especially wierd or unduly hard about getting a 6.5mm to shoot cast lead. Start just like any other rifle. Slug the barrel and the throat to see what you need groove wise, to start with. There is not a wide variety of 6.5mm moulds out there to play with so your selection shouldn't be too hard. I have 6 Swede Mausers and they all shoot a boolit softer then linotype very accurately and without leading. Say about 16 bhn or so. A bit harder then WW alloy. Until recently all lubing had been Javalina (NRA 50/50). It still is sometimes, if I don't wanna mess with heating the other lube-sizer.

The 2 common sizer diameters for the 6.5 is .264 and .266". Choose the largest of which will fit your rifle's throat. Be sure to mike the slug after sizing and before loading if there is any possiblity of your selection being a tight fit in the chamber. All sizing dies do not size to what is stamped on them, plus you will have a bit of springback to a 16 bhn alloy. Also it may be a bit smaller. Just be aware of the finish size so if you have a problem you'll have this info beforehand.

I've had good luck with 4227 powder and also Unique. My favorite is WC872 ball surplus in charges of 32 to 34 grs. If you have some, try it first. It doesn't burn clean in this application because it's so slow. However, for the accuracy it delivers I can live with it! Maven has had very good results with surplus WC820 ball (similar to AA#9). He can supply the data.

Lastly as 45 2-1 mentioned, I did do some shooting with an old NLA Lyman mould. It was a SC and dropped a 122gr HP Loverin slug at .268" if I recall. Sized to .266" I used WC872 (as a proven known quantity to me as I had a limited number of slugs). Starmetal mentioned 1900 fps and this is probably about right without my checking my data. The best part was that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed, and I only stopped as I had run out of these boolits to shoot.

The current custom order for the 6 cav Lee mould dropping nominal 125gr slugs is based on this high speed accuracy. It appeared that going heavy (long) wasn't the right direction. It remains to be seen if this new shorter-lighter boolit will perform as well. I do encourage you to try cast in your 6.5mm. However I seriously doubt that you will be happy with your accuracy at 1800-2000 fps with any 140 to 160gr cast boolit. I hope I'm wrong, though.

What I've mentioned above has worked for me. It's not graven in stone by any means, and it's only offered as a place you might choose to start.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Maybe a certain person will see now that what I was talking about wasn't armchair shooting.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-
Can you read and understand, he said this:

Lastly as 45 2-1 mentioned, I did do some shooting with an old NLA Lyman mould. It was a SC and dropped a 122gr HP Loverin slug at .268" if I recall. Sized to .266" I used WC872 (as a proven known quantity to me as I had a limited number of slugs). Starmetal mentioned 1900 fps and this is probably about right without my checking my data. The best part was that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed, and I only stopped as I had run out of these boolits to shoot.

He said that accuracy remained VERY good at this speed. Read it until you understand it. He said it, not me. He ran out of bullets to test. I own the mold he used. I said the bullets were undersize for what he was trying. Let him test bullets out of the new molds at a larger size before you try to jump everyone. He shot them, not you since you don't have a Swede.

[Nrut]

Well I certainly thank you all for your input....Oldfeller and his tales of Karlina have me thinking I should just use Rem. bulk bullets until the jury results come in on your "Lee 6 cavity group buy" mold......I think the twist rate on my .260 is probably slower than the Swede so it may not be as hard to get to shoot....I'm not looking for benchrest type groups for practice but don't want to get side tracked trying to get the .260 to shoot passable groups either!!.......I'm sure you all know how that goes as per Karlina's curse!!!.........I also have a 38-55 Marlin CB with a .381 grooove dia. to contend with for now (just getting started) so will put the .260/cast project on the shelf for now.......thanks again for all your input...I'm overwhelmed ........cheers mic

has Karlina cursed the Marlin CB in 38-55 also???

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

Yes I read it. To me 1900 fps falls into the upper range of the low velocity range. It's no ways near 2400 fps. There's a big difference in the bullet rpm's between those two speeds.

I've very interested in seeing how the new short bullet will do. What concerns me is for one I throated my 260 out long so I could see the bullets out farther and two the 6.5 Swede apparently is throated pretty far out to handle those long heavy military bullets they were designed for. Thus I'm concerned about will this present too much jump for the new short bullet?

I was concidering to chamber the new rifle I build on the Arisaka action to 6.5 Swede. I decided on the 260 because I like that class of cartridges designed off the 308 parent. One thing if I did have it chambered to the Swede version it wouldn't have the Swede's very fast twist. I still have half a notion to have the barrel cut back a tak and rechambered to 6.5 Swede, merely because the round would feed better being that it's more long and slender similar to the original 6.5 Jap. I have worked some on the feed rails and the feeding of a full magazine is half decent, but not perfect.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-
Maybe i'm confused, but your going to have to explain your statement below. 7 1/2" twist produces the same initial RPMs out of the barrel. I don't think you meant to use the term RPM (rotations per minute) here. Rotations per distance traveled changes with speed as does the centrifugal force of the bullet.

Joe's statement: There's a big difference in the bullet rpm's between those two speeds.

[StarMetal]

What I meant is that the rpm's of the bullet exiting the muzzle at 1900 fps are alot different then the same bullet exiting the muzzle at 2400 fps. Most the other fellows here that have played with the Swede believe it's the high rotational speed caused by the Swede's extremely fast twist that is killing the longer cast bullet's accuracy. I'm in the process of testing this out with my 1/7 twist AR15 with long 70 gr cast bullets for it. So far it hasn't exhibited the same failures as the Swede. I've already have shot some (abeit they were of a soft alloy and Bullshop has sent me some harder alloy ones and I will retest) at 3000 fps then they still stayed on the target, not to fly off in wonder wonder land as Waksupi other have mentioned. So apparently my long 22 caliber bullets out of my 7 twist barrel aren't getting bent upon muzzle exit. What started me on this, not with you, is that I thought it funny that my 260 is being a bugger to get shooting cast bullet and it is of the 6.5 bore family. One would think that it's 9 twist would be alot more cooperative then the Swede's faster twist, but not so in my rifle so far. By the my rifle has been tested both fully bedded and barrel free floated with no difference in jacketed or cast. So I ruled out bedding with my cast problem with it. I'll have to go look at my throat slug I made to see what I am dealing with in that rifle, but I can tell you that it's not too much larger then the groove diameter which is .264 on the button. Like I said the bullets Buckshot sent me were sized to .268 and they wouldn't even begin to chamber.

Joe

[350mag]

Doggone it all, just when it looked like Joe and 45 2.1 were gonna get into a name calling free for all pissing match they start having a reasonable conversation again Boys, ya gotta remember to stay mad at each other if you want to have a real drag out fight. Don't ruin all my entertainment value by returning to rational behavior. I don't own a 6.5 and never really have wanted one but I sure enjoy a good flame war when it gets burning hot
Ken

[StarMetal]

Shame on you 350mag, go stand in the corner!!! I'm not going to call 45 2.1 any names so you might as well find another flame fight. All I want to do is get to the bottom of why the 6.5 Swede (and throw in the 260 Rem or any 6.5 caliber rifle) are so hard or finickly to get to shoot higher velocities accurately and if they really do bend softer alloy bullets upon muzzle exit. Hopefully I make him think and hopefully he makes me think. They always say two heads are better then one. All the folks that have a 6.5 Swede or know some about this jump in instead of hoping for a good flame fight.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Try some copper babbit for your bullets. It works along with wilke/barnes drive bands and paper patching. In general a PITA to do if you want to shoot alot.

350 mag- Stand too close to your stove, then go jump in the surf if you want excitement.

[StarMetal]

Boy, and to think, at one time I had a babbit supply that was plentiful enough to keep a 105 howitzer in service for years.

Joe