Advice needed

[MT Gianni]

I found the device to be slow to use but to give 100% ignition with pyrodex. I had a good deal on rws caps that gave 70% ignition or so and were only 2.98 per 100. I could buy primers for 13.99 a 1000. This gave me the ability to go shoot with components I used already and get good ignition when I couldn't get real BP. THis was with a TC Hawken. Gianni.

[omgb]

Those converters (#11 to rifle primer) were designed with the use of pelletized BP subs in mind. When using granulated subs or straight BP, a number 11 cap will do the trick nicely. Blow back is minimal and as stated by others, the outright inconvenience of using the converter, especially after your hands get coated in grime and lube, outweighs any minimal advantage in velocity gained.

Your T/C is a very fine rifle. It is accurate, well-made and a pleasure to shoot. If you wanted to add another barrel and make it kind of a poor man's Gibbs it could be done. My guess is though that you will decide against it. Conicals shoot so well from a T/C that I think you may just decide to save your money and stick with what you've got.

[Maven]

ombg, Not meant to be a flame: Flame-N'-Go was one of the names the device was marketed under, but it predates pelletized Pyro. by several years. Its advantages were a sealed ignition system, which was purported to resist moisture and give higher vel. and a hotter "flame" due to the [small] rifle primer. It will, of course, work with traditional BP rifles and Pyro. pellets, but with various "quick loading" devices available, why would one pay a considerable premium for convenience? Put another way, some of my friends who own in-lines occasionally use loose powder and sometimes even patched RB's in them. However, those with traditional designs almost never use pellets in them.

[omgb]

Of course I know you're right. I've been in the game since '74 so I should have remembered that. I think I've been reading way too much industry hype for my own good.

I teach hunter safety in Los Angeles and you would be surprised what guys drag to the range. Lots of folks by those Pyrodex and T7 pellets and use them in "Hawken-style" guns. Why? Beats the ehck outa me but they do. Personally, I've never used the pellets. I tried T7 in my Lyman GP but ignition was iffy without a priming charge of BP so why bother. Pyrodex has been good but it costs nearly twice what BP does in my neck of the woods so why use it?

Any way, thanks for the correction. In the interest of accuracy it was a good thing.

BTW, do you remember Tap -O-Cap, it let you make caps using toy caps and beer cans?

[Maven]

omgb, Yes, Forster at one time sold them and a rotating patch cutter as well. I don't know anyone who actually used the tool to make his own caps. Speaking of which, are rolls of caps still being sold? With respect to Pyro. P & RS, I use them even though they're more expensive than BP largely because no one in the area stocks the latter. When I need a few pounds of it, I ask the BP guru at our club for it. Then too, our condo rules prohibit storing anything flammable indoors, not even mineral spirits. A case of BP would pose a real problem. However, I do keep smokeless powder on hand, but don't advertise it.

[West Creek]

Without reading all four pages of your post - plenty of good advise. Great plaes or TC rifle in cap lock is the way I would go in your shoes for sure.

MY Advise:

1st - Use black powder - you can get real black pretty reasonable - use Wano or Kik - nothing wrong with it and shoots good. Real black poder is much easier on the cleaning than any of the substitutes out there. If you cant get black easy - email me and I will give you a couple suppliers.

2nd - use ballistol for lube and cleaner - you can even use mule snot for cleaner or just plain old hot water and soap - BUT still use ballistol - dilluted it is a good cleaner and full strength makes a good lube fo rparts and rust protection. Best part is the more you use it the more seasoned it gets in your steel and the easier the cleaning - it just gets better all the time and easier - sure makes for black powder easy to deal with - wont take you a few minutes to clean your gun adn your all done

[omgb]

Roll caps are still made but they aren't what they used to be

I'm not crazy about Pyrodex. It works OK in MLs but it's a poor second to good BP in a cartridge gun. Too, if a guy is crazy enough to use an amonia based solvent to clean it up he's gonna have a hairy barrel in just a few hours.

I wish BP were easier to obtain. It really is a superlative propellant for MLs and BPCRs

As to Balistol ..... it isn't the cure-all the makers claim but, it is an excellent solvent mixed 10-1 with water. It's also a pretty fair patch lube at the same proportions.

[joeb33050]

What conicals can I shoot in the Renegade? What mold should I buy?
I'm interested in the primer adapter thing because that would eliminate the blowback and nipple-platinum in a ReneGibbs.
Where can I buy a primer adapter thing?
I don't use BP because there's noplace to buy it, at least I can't find a place Miami and south.
The Renegade is on the way, got to get rid of the CVA, no room.
Thanks;
joe b.

[Maven]

JoeB, My experience with conicals is limited to .45cal. The molds I have, a T/C, a Lyman and a Lee REAL all cast very well and give me excellent accuracy (3-5 touching @ 50 yds. wi. open sights) with Pyro. RS & BP when I can get it. I believe Saeco & RCBS also made conical/Maxi-Ball molds, but they're harder to find and pricey. Try some of the suggestions I've made earlier in this thread for good casting & shooting results. As for the "primer thing," I have a like-new Flame-N'-Go for small rifle primers that you can have if you PM me your address. You'll need a steel pick (dental tool is ideal) to remove the fired primers though.

P.S. I'm in the same boat you are with respect to too many rifles. I've got at least 4 that I no longer "need."

[straightshooter1]

Great thread and lots of great advice.

I might take issue with the Zouave not being accurate. I have one I bought for about $100, used, in the 80s and someone had soldered on a higher front sight.

With patched 570 round balls and 70 grains of FF, this rifle is real accurate. I find the old style minie balls to be accurate also, but they shoot slightly lower and about 5 inches to the left of the patched ball (which shoot to point of aim at 50 yards with the lowest sight.

I have whined before that, here in UrbanSprawl (TampaBay) we can only shoot one shot at a time (none in the magazine) and all from the bench UNLESS you are shooting a muzzleloader. Then we can shoot offhand at 50 yards. Which, of course, is why I shot my MLs twice this past week.

That being said about the Zouave, a Hawken-type rifle from TC or Lyman is more accurate, IMO.

My FFL has a slightly used Zouave, a Zoli like mine, but is asking $399. For that price, I would go for a TC or Lyman. No experience with the Traditions, and Pedersolis are sort of hit or miss IMO. My Pedersoli Sharps is perfect, but I have seen MLs, especially flints, from Pedersoli that needed work to make them operate correctly.

My FFL gave me a 36 caliber TC with a cracked stock on the left side just opposite of the nipple/bolster and which had a "bullet stuck in the barrel" that they could not get out. When I dribbled a bit of FFF in after removing the nipple and fired it, much to my surprise it was a cut off ramrod driven in backwards. The set screw on the left side of the barrel just forward of the breech plug was missing and I think that accounted for the crack in the stock.

With 30 grains of FFF at 50 yards it was marvelously accurate. The set triggers are a real help in the accuracy department. I will increase the load after the stock gets glued to fix the crack.

I don't think Pyrodex is as accurate as BP and it kicks more (to me) in BPCR 45-70s. I have an older can of Clearshot, but haven't opened it yet. I have not tried the newer substitutes and may never open the Clearshot.

[joeb33050]

Well I got the Renegade last evening and it looks very nice-but it's short. All the papers came with it including a TC book on loading BP guns. This book is dead set against using any petroleum products for lube or cleaning. Is this still the accepted wisdom? Is Ballistol a petroleum product? Thanks;
joe b.

[omgb]

No, Balistol is not a petro chemical. It's made from trees. The warning about not using petro chemicals comes from a desire not to create hard fouling. Petro chems combine with the sulfer in BP to create a really nasty hard tar-like fouling that is the absolute devil to remove. Avoiding them is good advice.

Clean using simple hot water and dish soap. Cheap and really effective. Witht he hooked breech on that gun simply remove the barrel wedge and remove the barrel. After removing th nipple, set the breech end of the barrel in a bucket filled half way with very hot water and a teaspoon of dish soap. Take a patch and wrap it around a cleaning jag and then pump it up and down in the bore. You will feel the water flushing through the barrel. Then, change over to clean soap-free hot water and do the same again. Run a couple of dry patches through, let it sit 10 minutes or so to dry completely and then coat with either Balistol or Crisco. Wipe the exterior down with a damp rag, oil with any good gun oil, (petro based is OK here) reinstall the nipple and you're good to go. Water and BP are brothers. Nothing cleans it as well nor is anything better at removing fouling. Some guyes make their own lube using Crisco and bees wax or lamb fat and bees wax. I've used both and both are very good. The easy route is to buy some TC lube. It works well.

As to the gun being short, well, it sure points better than way and it won't hurt the shooting performance one iota.

[joeb33050]

No, Balistol is not a petro chemical. It's made from trees. The warning about not using petro chemicals comes from a desire not to create hard fouling. Petro chems combine with the sulfer in BP to create a really nasty hard tar-like fouling that is the absolute devil to remove. Avoiding them is good advice.

Clean using simple hot water and dish soap. Cheap and really effective. Witht he hooked breech on that gun simply remove the barrel wedge and remove the barrel. After removing th nipple, set the breech end of the barrel in a bucket filled half way with very hot water and a teaspoon of dish soap. Take a patch and wrap it around a cleaning jag and then pump it up and down in the bore. You will feel the water flushing through the barrel. Then, change over to clean soap-free hot water and do the same again. Run a couple of dry patches through, let it sit 10 minutes or so to dry completely and then coat with either Balistol or Crisco. Wipe the exterior down with a damp rag, oil with any good gun oil, (petro based is OK here) reinstall the nipple and you're good to go. Water and BP are brothers. Nothing cleans it as well nor is anything better at removing fouling. Some guyes make their own lube using Crisco and bees wax or lamb fat and bees wax. I've used both and both are very good. The easy route is to buy some TC lube. It works well.

As to the gun being short, well, it sure points better than way and it won't hurt the shooting performance one iota.

Thanks, I'll get some crisco, I think. As to the short gun.... I have also noticed that moving the target closer to the muzzle reduces group size dramatically!! Has anyone written this up?
joe b.

[straightshooter1]

I have noticed that, too. But if you move it too close, the target has powder burns on it.

My solution for that is to place one target directly on top of the other, covering it completely. Fire my "group" and remove (hide) the first target, thus eliminating any powder burns.

Take the second target to the gunshop and watch the commandos oooh and aaah. Practice a self-deprecating shrug and a "Not too bad I guess."

Enjoy the Renegade.

Bob

[joeb33050]

Yesterday I shot the 50 caliber Renegade for the first time. At 25 yards the first five shots went into 1 5/8". I have a lot of trouble with the sights, so I was happy.
This with Pyrodex RS, Remington caps, .490" ball and TC lubed patches. I used a damp patch then a clean patch after each shot.
Then to 50 yards, adjusted sights and all was going well. Next tried shooting without wiping. As the TC book says, the bore stayed a little greasy, I could feel it as the patched ball went in. Without wiping the ball stuck at the end of the short starter travel The ball slid down with the short starter and a bit of pressure. Then the rod, and it was hard to impossible (hammer on the end of the rod) to get the ball started. After it started it went down with little resistance. This wasn't working, back to wiping.
I put masking tape on the rod to mark the proper depth, and found it impossible to always push the ball down the same distance-it varied +/- ~3/8". I push down until resistance, but can't control it better than that. May be me.
Then everything went south, balls hitting in ~12" group at 50 yards. I packed up and went home.
I cleaned the barrel with hot soapy water in a plastic pail in a bathtub, rinsed, dried, patched and found brown stuff on the patch. All over again. Brown stuff. All over again, tiny bit of brown stuff.
To follow the "no petroleum" rule, I wiped the bore with PAM, then with Bore Butter.
This morning I got a little bit of black out of the bore with Pam and a patch, not enough to worry me. Bore Butter again.
Why did it go south on me at 50, after ~35 shots? How do I fix this? If it's lead, how to get it out?
Why doesn't somebody make an adjustable rod holder thingy that can be set to stop the rod at a given column height?
I like this BPML thing, hope I can learn how to do it.
Thanks;
joe brennan

[omgb]

Sounds like the bore got too fouled. The ball should seat at the same place with the same load each time. Maybe a 1/4" difference if any but not 3/8" hmmm. Hammering the ball down the bore is going to open groups for sure. It's funny, one doesn't hear of fouling build up with Pyrodex. Again, that's a new one on me. Don't worry about the slight brown coming from the cleaned bore. They all do it. Also, leading si not going to be a problem so don't get to thinking it is. The ball is wrapped in a cloth patch. No contact with the bore at all so leading is zip.

[straightshooter1]

I shoot 2-3 with a patched, lubed ball, then I swab with a damp patch with the TC cleaner then with a dry patch.

I try to do everything uniformly-exactly the same for every loading. Place the patch on the muzzle, ball in the center, one tap with the short starter's knob to seat it in the muzzle, two taps on the short starter, pick up the ram rod, four strokes seats the ball, one last "gentle" tap to make sure it's all the way down.

I don't slam the ram rod on the ball, just push, push, push and the last push (which is shorter than the others).

If I feel any difference in the resistance in my procedure, after I fire that shot I swab a couple or three times with the TC cleaner and use two or three dry patches. Make sure the bore is DRY or you may have damp powder and a mess to deal with.

It sounds like the bore on yours was overly fouled as omgb said. Haven't used Pyrodex in quite a while as I don't think it is as accurate as BP so not sure about the fouling with it, but can't think of anything else it could be.

BTW, the BP suppliers (i.e. at gunshows) sell those great little bore lights that you turn on and slide down the bore so you can inspect it. Great investment! Don't forget to put a little faucet washer on to keep the light from coming on in your pocket if you buy one or you will need a supply of the batteries. If you see one of these lights, you will see how to place the washer.

Bob

[twotoescharlie]

I use a 50-50 mixture of Murphys oil soap and neatsfoot oil, (not neatsfoot compound as it contains mineral spirits). for target shooting you can shoot all day without swabbing the bore, last ball goes down as easy as the first one. pure neatsfoot oil is available at most tack shops and is much cheaper than the neatsfoot compound at wally world. measure and shake well.
if used for hunting put a dry felt wad between the powder and the ball and patch.
have been shooting M/L since 1955 and have tried many different lubes, but have found that the MOS and neatsfoot oil lube works best for myself.


TTC

[straightshooter1]

twotoescharlie:

I have never heard of that but being able to shoot all day without swabbing would be pretty cool. So you just lube the patch with the mixture like you'd lube it with any other lube?

[twotoescharlie]

this stuff is commonly known as "Moose Snot", I use pre cut patches or you could use strips and cut at the muzzle. precut patches are less messy. I put my patches in a ziplock baggie and squirt some of the lube on them and work the lube into the patches adding more if needed. they don't have to be dripping wet ,just saturated. you can leave them in the baggie or put them in a container. ( I use the plastic cans that smokeless tobacco comes in) most anyone that uses it will save them for you. I have found that if left in metal containers for any length of time they have the tendensy to discolor.
I have had good luck both with smoothbores and rifles with this lube.
you might also try some with a little alcohol added as you can use less and the alcohol evaporates off.


TTC