Advice needed

[joeb33050]

I want to get a BP muzzle loading rifle for shooting at 50 and 100 yards.
I'm thinking about a Zouave because of the minie ball and no patch needed.
Can I buy minie balls?
I'm also thinking about a Hawken, particularly a TC hawken, because there are aftermarket barrels available that fit the gun. Are patches available?
I don't want anyting non-traditional such as sabots or in-line gun or laser anything.
I'm looking for simple and no/few tricks to get started. I'm looking at a Pedersoli/Gibbs but need to get some experience first.
I know I need a
short starter
nipple wrench
powder measurer thing, adjustable
powder
bullets
caps
grease
What else do I need?
Thanks;
joe b.

[omgb]

Joe, it sounds as if you'd like to try this out but don't want to have to mortgage the home to do it. I think if you go the Zouave rout you will be disappointed. They are difficult guns to shoot well. Given the very crude sights, the nature of Minnie balls etc, they take a lot of fiddling to get anything like 4" groups at 100 yards. The triggers alone on most Zouaves are really heavy running up wards of 10-15 lbs and that's on the top models like the Pedersolis.

A much better bet is to go with a Thompson Center Hawken or a Lyman Great Plains. Shopping the INTERNET for a good used one should get you one for $200 or less. Round balls are available all over the place. Patches are easily made simply from pillow ticking. Load powder, place greased patch cloth over the muzzle, start the ball, cut the surplus patching off with a pocket knife, finish loading the ball, cap and fire. Simple. If you want, pre cut and lubed patches are available where ever you buy caps and powder.

You will need a powder flask, nipple wrench, cleaning jag, powder measure for sure. Optional are a separate delrin cleaning rod (much nicer to use than the wood ram rod that comes with the rifle) a patch puller, a ball puller and a capper.

The T/C Hawken is a compromise gun, that is, its rifling is such that it shoots heavy minnies or round balls pretty good. The GP rifle is a round ball gun. Both are capable of 3" or better groups at 100 yards and both have set triggers and adjustable sights.

Now all of that being said, if you wanted to go flint...I've got a spare Lyman carbine that I could let go for $200 including the original box and some extra flints. It's not a steal but it's a fair price for a spotless gun. Honestly though, unless you want a flinter for the "magic of it all" or because your local hunting laws require it, I'd go caplock and not look back.

[mparks]

IMO, get a used T/C Hawken or Renegade. Lifetime warrenty and they are going cheap on the used market since everybody is into plastic stocked inlines that come in a bubble pack now-a-days.

.50 cal is easiest to get stuff for.

Shooting stuff:
balls
short starter maybe. I don't use one.
powder measure.
patches. pre-lubed, pre-cut are readily available)
powder. Pyrodex RS is easy to find but Black is traditional.
caps

Cleaning stuff:
patch jag
patch worm for when the aformentioned slips and leaves a patch in the breech.
old t-shirt or whatever to cut into cleaning patches
I like T/C bore butter for the bore and any type of oil for the exterior.

You really need to get a book or read up on the net about the basics. The above is what I use but everyone has their own ideas of what is best.

When I started the Dixie Gun Works catalog was the greatest reading material ever. Sounds like you'd like it if you lean to the traditional side. That would be a good place to get minnie balls and Zouaves.

[shooter575]

Getting a military rifled musket to shoot well is a bunch more work than getting a PRB rifle to shoot.That said I think they are a lot more fun once all that stuff is figured out.The italian repops are made mostley for reinactors that just shoot blanks. The locks,sights need work.The Dixie minnes I have seen are junk.Some of them were too hard of lead.Most had casting flaws.There are a couple guys making good minnes.At 10-12 minnes to the pound shipping will add up.You will probley need to cast your own.But aint that why we are here

[versifier]

IMO, get a used T/C Hawken or Renegade. Lifetime warrenty and they are going cheap on the used market since everybody is into plastic stocked inlines that come in a bubble pack now-a-days.

It doesn't really matter what the caliber is, it's the T/C lock and action that matters. You can always upgrade your Hawken or Renegade barrel with a super acurate Green Mtn. drop-in of whatever size tickles your fancy for either slugs or prb's, (not an option with a Lyman or other brands). T/C's stand up very well under hard use and in my not very humble opinion, they are the best comercially made locks available today. T/C or Fox Ridge (their custom shop) also sells a great peep sight for Hawkens and Renegades, and Williams makes a really good one, too. Either is a much, much better way to go than the open rear sight mounted halfway up the barrel. For target shooting, I might be inclined to go with the Williams as you can get a selection of aperture sizes and they are easier to adjust, but for hunting I remove the small apertures anyway for a better field of view and the advantage of keeping both eyes open for depth perception on moving game.

You have a choice of PRB's, MaxiBalls, MaxiHunters, REAL's, or sabots (they are very accurate and easier on your shoulder for practice, plus you'll very likely already have some moulds for the boolits to put in them - .44 for .50, and .44 or .45 for .54 - T/C sells inexpensive bulk sabots). Plus there are all kinds of other boolits commercially made, with a greater selection for .50 cal than others. If you choose PRB's, cast your own as they will be much more consistant (and accurate) than the commercially swaged ones. You'll have to experiment a little with patch thicknesses and maybe ball sizes to see what your rifle likes best. I generally use Pyrodex R/S in my .54's as it is more readily available and more consistant batch-to-batch than bp.

If you contact them at T/C, they will send you a copy of the manual that comes with their traditional m/l's, with load data from .45 to 12Ga. 603-233-2333 or manuals@tcarms.com

Supplies:
Short starter (especially for target shooting and tight patches)
Capper (very handy to have), caps
Spare nipple, nipple wrench (T/C sells a tool that has wrench and wedge pin puller all-in-one)
Powder measure, lots of small plastic vials for pre-measured charges
Ball puller, patch worm, cleaning jag
Large cleaning patches, BP Solvent, oil, Q-tips, old toothbrush
Boolits or sabots & boolits
Bore Butter or similar lube for MaxiBalls/MaxiHunters
Balls, patches, patch lube
T/C also makes a T-handle that screws onto your ramrod to make it easier to grab onto for cleaning and range use.
Those little compressed air thingys for blowing your charge or blowing a ball that you seated without charging first are really handy, too. Finding out the hard way is no fun......

[joeb33050]

Thanks for the help and advice. I bid $140 on a CVA 50 caliber Hawken in "very good" condition, and won it. I'm surprised. Sunday we'll be bringing grandkids to the Ft. Lauderdale airport, and I'll get to Bass Pro Shop for the supplies you've recommended. This might not be the best rifle, but for $140 it's hard to get burnt.
I'll keep you up to date.
Thanks;
joe b.

[mooman76]

They sell a starter kit for BP and it will have most of the things you need to get you started!

[versifier]

I'm not too enthused about your choice, but it will let you learn the basics. At that point, you will be a little more experienced and the above advice might come in handy.

[joeb33050]

I'm expecting the CVA Hawken any day now. Bought a pound of Pyrodex RS = FFG, box of #11 caps, short starter, box of .490" balls, set of TC lubed patches .018" thick ticking, and a capper.
Yesterday at the range I talked to the local BP wizard, who looked up his loads for his 50 caliber CVA Hawken and said I had the right balls and patches, that Pyrodex is sort of obsolete-teplaced by triple 7, and that his loads were 30 grains at 25 yards, 45 grains at 50 yards.
This doesn't seem like much powder. Is this right?
Thanks;
joe b.

[mparks]

I'm expecting the CVA Hawken any day now. Bought a pound of Pyrodex RS = FFG, box of #11 caps, short starter, box of .490" balls, set of TC lubed patches .018" thick ticking, and a capper.
Yesterday at the range I talked to the local BP wizard, who looked up his loads for his 50 caliber CVA Hawken and said I had the right balls and patches, that Pyrodex is sort of obsolete-teplaced by triple 7, and that his loads were 30 grains at 25 yards, 45 grains at 50 yards.
This doesn't seem like much powder. Is this right?
Thanks;
joe b.

If he is using a black powder measure and quoting you volume of his charges than those are very light target loads. Hunting charges are going to be 70+ grains in a .50.

[windwalker]

versifier you said It doesn't really matter what the caliber is, it's the T/C lock and action that matters. You can always upgrade your Hawken or Renegade barrel with a super acurate Green Mtn. drop-in of whatever size tickles your fancy for either slugs or prb's, (not an option with a Lyman or other brands). whats rong with the lyman grate plains hunter with 1in 32 twist they shoot minis very accuratley.
bernie

[waksupi]

Pyrodex will push a ball out of the bore, but accuracy will most likely suck. Stick with real black powder.
Any charge of BP that will get a ball to the target, is enough. However, a ML, like any other rifle, will have one load it prefers. I believe you should find this load, and shoot it all the time. I see people on the range shooting varying loads, for different distances. And I have never seen one of them , finish anywhere near the top.

[KCSO]

Start at 70 grains of Black and work up til you get the best group. Then adjust yur sights and use that load. Then when you go hunting you will know exactly where the ball is going to go. It doesn't take a big load to kill a deer or even a buffalo. 80 grains of FFg will shoot through a buff broadside and is not a bad load to shoot on the range. Practice with what you hunt with if possible. If you don't hunt at all start a little lower and just go for the most accurate. With that twist I would expext peak accuracy somewhere in the 70 gr range. Don't forget to try different patch combinations and lubes in your search for the one hole group, and make sure the breech on the rifle is tight before you start. If the barrel will move at all in the brreech accuracy will be erratic at best.

[StarMetal]

Waksupi,

I know you're a dyed in the wool hardcore BP user. I'm not, so with that said only thing I own at the present in BP guns are an inline TC in 50 cal and a Ruger Old Army Stainless. Lets start with the Ruger. With Pyrodex and Lymans old hollow base conical meant for the 1858 Remington it will just about rival most anyone on the forum 1911 groups at 25 yards. One of the most accurate revolvers I've ever seen or owned. Not so with BP. As for the TC inline, I've shot it with BP, Pyrodex, Pyrodex Select, and Triple 777. I can honestly say that BP didn't out shoot those other powders, but nor did they the BP. Reason I got started on Pyrodex? The availiability of BP being hard to get and since I moved to TN, in this area that I'm in, it's NON-EXISTANT!!!! because of regulations to store and sell it. I would prefer it. Why? Especially if I just said Pyrodex was darn good. Well, because I like it. I like the blue/white cloud of smoke, I like the smell, I like knowing I'm using the real McCoy. Darn I grew up with the stuff. From the first time my best friend and I bought it at the age of 14 to make rockets, cannons, and bombs...I fell in love with it. Some of my first guns were cap n ball revolvers.

Joe

[versifier]

whats rong with the lyman grate plains hunter with 1in 32 twist they shoot minis very accuratley.
bernie

Accuracy is not the biggest issue here. That has more to do with the barrel, which should be easily replacable on a well-designed m/l rifle, (and also the sights and fit of the stock). I am talking about quality of workmanship, durability, and reliability, which all has to do with the lock.
One of the main reasons why I'm so gung-ho for T/C's is the years I spent (late 70's through 80's) working on other peoples' guns. Most anything on the market will work for occasional shooting, which, in truth, is all most owners of m/l's want them for, and that's fine as far as it goes. Now, there are a number of traditional custom locks that are of excellent to absolutely phenominal craftsmanship, but they are generally very expensive, some up into the many hundreds of dollars. Some are designed specifically for historical accuracy and others are built for real use by serious and/or competetive shooters. Of the comercially available locks that you don't have to take out a second mortgage or hand over your first born to pay for, T/C's traditional locks stand up better under regular use - weekly shooting, competitive shooting, hundreds of rounds a month shooting - than the others.

Every year, right around now, the rifles would start to come in to be worked on for fall hunting. Not counting the elbows that never bothered to clean them (whose guns I would not work on), there were the others with worn or broken parts to be replaced, and very soon I began to notice something about them. Less than 10% of the rifles that came to me needing work were T/C's, and of them, they mostly just needed new springs and nipples. On the others, I was constantly tearing down locks, replacing major parts. Common problems were poor heat treating of bearing surfaces of moving parts that wore much too quickly, inferior castings that broke under what I would consider casual use (ten or twenty rounds/year fired), stripped screws and shoddy workmanship courtesy of Bubbasky at minimum wage on the assembly line at the factory in East Slobovia or somewhere in Asia.

Trying to get the replacement parts for them was usually difficult, (weeks or months waiting), sometimes impossible, (though in all fairness the people at Lyman in particular were pretty good that way). A phone call to T/C and I had whatever I needed in two days. No hassles, no backorders, no runaround, and many repairs were covered under their warranty so it involved just shipping it off and getting it back within two weeks all fixed.

What it comes right down to for me is this: if you're going to shoot it a lot, buy a good one and swear by it instead of at it. If you want a reliable hunting or target rifle that will last through more seasons than you will see, either go custom or go Thompson. With many traditional models now discontinued in favor of inlines, if you come upon a used T/C in good condition at a reasonable price, BUY IT. Don't piss and moan and whine about it until someone else comes along and snaps it up, JUST BUY IT. Properly cared for like any other well made firearm it will last for generations. It will continue to appreciate in value over time, which will not be the case with the cheaply made *** imports. Not every good deal turns out that way in the long run. Saving $50 today might be buying you twenty or thirty years of headaches. Is it worth it?

[Maven]

All, but joeb in particular: (1) Versifier is absolutely correct about T/C quality and service. Indeed, last week I called them about a replacement Patridge sight for a Renegade and had a "used" one* in my hand 2 days later. (2) I was shooting my .490" Green Mt. (1:66" twist) last week with 70gr. Pyro. RS @ 50yd. and got excellent accuracy (always have with Pyrodex). I also tried T/C and Lyman Maxi-Balls (240 & 220gr. resp.) and Lee R.E.A.L.'s in the original .45cal bbl. (T/C) also @ 50 yds. (from a rest) with the same 70gr. Pyro. RS and got m.o.a. accuracy. Three days ago I shot my .495" Mowrey rifle offhand @ 50 yds. also with 70gr. Pyro. RS and was extremely pleased with the results. Said rifle is made for offhand shooting and balances very well. (3) In blind testing I'm willing to bet there is NO difference in accuracy produced by either BP or Pyro., controlling for granulation. Will there be a difference in velocity between various brands of BP and Pyro.? You bet! Will there also be a difference in the amount of fouling between these? Of course! (4) I've also used Pyro. P & RS and Goi FFFg in my Marlin #336 with CB's and found NO difference in accuracy that could be attributed to the propellant I used. (5) All of the RB's and Maxi-/R.E.A.L.'s I used were home-made from Pb. (6) CVA Hawkens were quite popular years ago. The now defunct BP faction (which is what they were, but that's another story) of our club had several and used them to good effect.

P.S. to joeb: I sent you a PM last week: Did you receive it?


*T/C no longer manufactures the Patridge/Renegade front sight. I had to ask the T/C operator for a used one and she transferred my call to a gunsmith who works on Renegades. He had no trouble locating a Patridge sight, which looked new to me. Btw, T/C still makes the bead/Hawken front sight.

[waksupi]

Well, my only personal experience with Pyrodex, is with patched round balls. Accuracy was terrible. Sometimes the ball would go where it was intended. Other times, it would kind of go poop, and you would see the ball exit the muzzle, and hit the ground maybe twenty yards ahead of me. So, I don't care for it.

[44man]

The Zouave is very accurate only if the Minnie fits the bore. We have shot them out to 200 meters very well but the moulds had to be lapped out. You want a nice fit in the bore.
They are picky about powder charges too. Too much powder with a thin skirt will blow the skirt when it exits the muzzle. There are thicker skirt Minnie's that take a heavier charge. Doesn't matter much about the load though, 50 gr's of black will do any deer in fast. Darn things are great fun too. They are very easy to shoot offhand, seems like a perfect balance and fit.

[joeb33050]

Thanks for the offer, but percussion is hard enough for me.
joe b.

Now all of that being said, if you wanted to go flint...I've got a spare Lyman carbine that I could let go for $200 including the original box and some extra flints. It's not a steal but it's a fair price for a spotless gun. Honestly though, unless you want a flinter for the "magic of it all" or because your local hunting laws require it, I'd go caplock and not look back.

[joeb33050]

Maven;
Yes, I got your PM. Between that and this you're well on the way to writing that "INTRO TO MUZZLELOADING" that we need for the CBA book.
I'm going to get my feet wet with the CVA Hawken, which is supposed to be here Monday. Meanwhile I'll be looking for a used T/C Hawken in good shape. There seems to be general agreement that T/C is the best way to go, and I certainly don't want to have to take a lock apart.
Thanks to all for the help and advice, I'll shoot next Wed and let you know what happens.
joe b.

All, but joeb in particular: (1) Versifier is absolutely correct about T/C quality and service. Indeed, last week I called them about a replacement Patridge sight for a Renegade and had a "used" one* in my hand 2 days later. (2) I was shooting my .490" Green Mt. (1:66" twist) last week with 70gr. Pyro. RS @ 50yd. and got excellent accuracy (always have with Pyrodex). I also tried T/C and Lyman Maxi-Balls (240 & 220gr. resp.) and Lee R.E.A.L.'s in the original .45cal bbl. (T/C) also @ 50 yds. (from a rest) with the same 70gr. Pyro. RS and got m.o.a. accuracy. Three days ago I shot my .495" Mowrey rifle offhand @ 50 yds. also with 70gr. Pyro. RS and was extremely pleased with the results. Said rifle is made for offhand shooting and balances very well. (3) In blind testing I'm willing to bet there is NO difference in accuracy produced by either BP or Pyro., controlling for granulation. Will there be a difference in velocity between various brands of BP and Pyro.? You bet! Will there also be a difference in the amount of fouling between these? Of course! (4) I've also used Pyro. P & RS and Goi FFFg in my Marlin #336 with CB's and found NO difference in accuracy that could be attributed to the propellant I used. (5) All of the RB's and Maxi-/R.E.A.L.'s I used were home-made from Pb. (6) CVA Hawkens were quite popular years ago. The now defunct BP faction (which is what they were, but that's another story) of our club had several and used them to good effect.

P.S. to joeb: I sent you a PM last week: Did you receive it?


*T/C no longer manufactures the Patridge/Renegade front sight. I had to ask the T/C operator for a used one and she transferred my call to a gunsmith who works on Renegades. He had no trouble locating a Patridge sight, which looked new to me. Btw, T/C still makes the bead/Hawken front sight.