303 Brit brass, preferences?

[robertbank]

My Grand-dad carried a Ross for the first couple of years in WW1 until thye finally got the #1 Rifle. Grand-dad said they jammed in the mud and if you didn't assemble the bolt properly the damm thing came back at you. He spent four years in the trenches, not much time in Parliament I am afraid. This was a rather big scandle back in Canada I am told.

He of course is gone now as are all our WW1 vets. April 9th has a special meaning for us.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Grand-dad said they jammed in the mud and if you didn't assemble the bolt properly the damm thing came back at you.

And you'd have a hard time finding a Ross collector who'd deny that.

You'd also find that the Ross made an excellent sniper rifle, and was stronger than the Enfield.

Also oddly enough in testing before WW1 the Lee Enfield came out second best to the Ross in cold weather functioning in deep forest or snow fields.

The loose tolerances of British supplied .303 ammo contributed to jamming of the Ross rifles in France. Efforts were made to cut chambers a bit looser to compensate.
The lack of good leverage doomed the Ross as it did almost every straightpull design applied to infantry rifles with the Swiss Rifles a notable exception though they seldom were used in combat much less trench warfare.

Superiority over the Ross seems to have grown into the perception that all other Infantry rifles of WW1 had the same problems of jamming in mud.

[robertbank]

And you'd have a hard time finding a Ross collector who'd deny that.

You'd also find that the Ross made an excellent sniper rifle, and was stronger than the Enfield.

Also oddly enough in testing before WW1 the Lee Enfield came out second best to the Ross in cold weather functioning in deep forest or snow fields.

The loose tolerances of British supplied .303 ammo contributed to jamming of the Ross rifles in France. Efforts were made to cut chambers a bit looser to compensate.
The lack of good leverage doomed the Ross as it did almost every straightpull design applied to infantry rifles with the Swiss Rifles a notable exception though they seldom were used in combat much less trench warfare.

Superiority over the Ross seems to have grown into the perception that all other Infantry rifles of WW1 had the same problems of jamming in mud.

Unfortunately having a rifle that is stronger than another when the latter is strong enough is less important than having one that goes bang when you must have it go bang. My conversations with him regarding the war were very brief as he had little desire to talk about his time overseas much less attempt to glorify the war. Killing other humans was not something he found particularly satisfying nor did he think it did much good or have any lasting effect on world events.

Given events over the last hundred years I think he was right.

The Ross was a very good hunting rifle. Didn't fair very well as a combat rifle.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Killing other humans was not something he found particularly satisfying nor did he think it did much good or have any lasting effect on world events.

Given events over the last hundred years I think he was right.

Unfortunately the vast majority of mankind could never reach the same conclusion, so those not willing to fight became either the subjects or slaves of those willing to kill.
As for lasting effects, civilization has been shaped by war, theres simply no way of knowing what the world might have been like without it, so the effects for good or ill are definitely lasting.

As for WW1 era rifles, I was never particularly impressed by the Mauser, I've owned a few and had no problem parting with them in trading. They do have significant advantages, especially simplicity and ease of maintenance.
I've seen nothing in the Mauser that would lead me to believe it was at all prone to jamming under muddy conditions.
The Springfield had a potential flaw in its two piece firing pin, and some low number receivers were defective due to improper forging temperatures. Both proved more consistently accurate than the SMLE, though the SMLE MkIII rear sight with windage adjustment offset that advantage a bit if the troops were properly trained in its use.
Rapidity of fire and the ten round capacity were the best features of the Enfield, with handling qualities a matter of personal preferance.
I think the Book "Sniping in France" gives a pretty good evaluation of the Enfield in comparasion to contemporary infantry rifles. The main criticizm being the tendency of fore ends to swell or warp under wet weather conditions, and loss of precise long range accuracy due to Cordite erosion after as little as 500 rounds in extreme cases and usually losing its edge for long range work after 1500 rnds. Thats more due to ammo quality than anything else, but the generous tolerances of the barrel probably contributed to shorter accuracy life.
With high quality ammo, and care taken in cleaning, a barrel on the tight side of tolerances could remain reasonably accurate for 6000 rounds, with 12,000 rnds given as the maximum useful bore life.
Careless cleaning with pullthrough and wire gauze could damage the bore very easily, and cord wear at the breech was downright dangerous.

The improper assembly of the Ross bolt could result in a blown bolt, and the seperate bolt head of the SMLE has on occasion been left out, though it would take a real dunce to do so, and an unsupported round fired. Neither was completely idiot proof.

PS
Rapid fire was a very real advantage of the SMLE, but the Springfield was fairly quick to operate as well.
From the Handbook of Ordnance

Exterior ballistics.—With the model of 1903 rifle, 23 aimed shots have been fired in one minute using it as a single loader, and 25 shots in the same interval, using magazine fire. Firing from the hip without aim, 30 shots have been fired using the rifle as a single loader and 40 shots using magazine fire

The Tenshot Enfield mag was certainly an advantage, but in practice they seldom fired more than 6 rounds before topping up with a five shot charger, and due to the rimmed case reloading of those five rounds took more attention and was just a hair slower than with rimless cartridges and stripper clips.
The straight bolt handle of the Gew98 made it less easy to operate rapidly from the shoulder. The bent bolt handle of the 98a short rifle was a bit easier to manipulate.
The 98a was a much closer match to the US and UK short rifle type.

[303Guy]

I would hazzard a guess that the rimmed 303 Brit cartridge would be more tolerant od dirt than a rimless cartridge. But only if the chamber was a bit longer than the cartridge to give a little clearance at the shoulder. Many were made that way for that reason, I'm given to believe. So much so that when I had a No4 barrel fitted to my NoI MkI* the chamber did not need recutting (the barrel gets set back half a turn or so because the thread start is in a different position). The LE could probably tolerate mud and debris with smaller tolerances than it's Mauser counterparts due to its design - that's my assesment, anyway. The cockng on closing made it real fast together with its slick action but that same cocking on closing is a pain for hunting and target shooting!

There is a rather serious safety defect with the Lee Enfield that I discovered one day. If one closes the bolt onto a chambered round rapidly with the trigger depressed, IT WILL FIRE

[bigedp51]

There is a rather serious safety defect with the Lee Enfield that I discovered one day. If one closes the bolt onto a chambered round rapidly with the trigger depressed, IT WILL FIRE

Two thoughts come into my mind about your statement...................

I can't help but wonder if a policeman had been at the shooting range that day, if your hand would have been cited for speeding. (for breaking the speed of sound)

Or possibly some of the STP you put on your cases got on your sear and made your trigger slippery than snot on a door knob.

[303Guy]

No, definately due to the striker falling on the primer as the 'safety cam' fell away under it. It took a while to figure out what had happened. The trigger was fully depressed and the cartridge was already in the chamber, so fast closing and locking was required to get the extractor over the rim. Needless to say, I have changed my procedure for closing a bolt on a chambered round. Oh, it was the old MkI bolt with that huge and heavy integral safety in the cocking piece.

I can't help but wonder if a policeman had been at the shooting range that day, if your hand would have been cited for speeding. (for breaking the speed of sound)

Yup. It was a fast movement. Never to be repeated!

[Multigunner]

So much so that when I had a No4 barrel fitted to my NoI MkI* the chamber did not need recutting (the barrel gets set back half a turn or so because the thread start is in a different position).

Well how about that, great minds move in the same channels, I also have begun fitting a No. 4 two groove to a No.1 action, the receiver ring of the No.1 was too mashed in to take the standard No.1 barrel so it was either set a No.4 back just short of half a thread or set back a No.1 about 3/4 of a thread ( not a ful thread in this case due to the damaged receiver ring face). I'd already been given a no.4 barrel that a friend had gotten for another project he had abandoned, trying to reactivate a DP no.4.
I haven't finished the alterations yet. This chamber was tight and the shortened chamber istoo tight at the base to take the case even if the shoulder were cut deeper. I'll have to freshen the chamber.
I've considered making it a 7.7X54R, The shorter civilian target version of the .303 once popular in Australia and France, but those require a full thread of set back, and I'd still have to open up the chamber body a hair.

A very sensitive primer can be set off by a very light blow, and broken firing pin points of the two piece Springfield could set off a round on closing rapidly with only the mainspring pressure holding it forwards. My SKS dented a primer so deeply the first time I loaded it that I'm suprized it didn't go off, and the pin was not jammed in a forwards position, the gun was pointed straight down so the rather heavy pin had a gravity assist.

The Enfield bolt can be manipulated with great speed.
Your AD was a one in a million, probably never to be repeated by design, but I can see how it could happen.
An alternate possibility would be if the sear were not coming all the way down when the trigger was pulled. Sometimes a bent sear leg will allow the cocking piece to be released but the sear catch in the half bent notch. I repaired a No.4 that had this problem years ago. In that case the sear caught the half bent notch every time and the rifle could not be fired. each time it had caught the sear leg bent more and more.
If the sear caught the half bent at the rounded ingress just enough to momentarily retract the pin and then it over rode just as the action were closed the pin could strike with enough force to ignite a sensitive primer or probably a regular primer for that matter.

Which reminds me, after figuring out that bolt handle kick up was due to vibration of the striker hitting home it occured to me that in a hangfire situation the bolt of a very loose Enfield could kick up enough to reduce locking surface contact by about 20-25% before the hangfire ignited the charge. Too much of that might cause undue stress on the right sidewall, and might be a source of microfractures such as those Armorers were told to look for.
My 1915 bolt looked fine, and headspace was very good with almost no over clocking, but there was too much side play, so I fitted a unissued BSA replacement bolt made in the 1950's along with a new condition bolthead. No kick up at all now.
After replacing the bolt body and the old bolthead which was a non correct SMLE MkI which may have been the source of excessive wear and sideplay, the new bolt fits perfectly cycles easily yet has no kick up at all.

Also I screwed the pin in an etra turn to shorten the gap between cocking piece and rear of the bolt. This reduced the play between the stud of the cocking piece and the retracting cam surface of the bolt, now the bolt could not kick up nearly as far if it did become loose again. A single extra turn cut the play in half.

When I'd earlier replaced the badly worn bolt of my No.4 it also lost any tendency to kick up, partly due to my having filed the underside of the handle to remove all contact with the action strap when closed. Not by design, but since the bolt handle had to be filed a bit anyway to allow the bolt to rotate fully closed.

Before getting the replacement No.1 Bolt I had noticed that if I nudged the bolt handle up enough to leave daylight between action strap and underside of the handle there was almost no kick up. Thats how I finally figured out what supplied the energy for bolt handle kick up, simple vibration.
The Nickel Steel alloy rings like a bell, though not so loudly in the human range of hearing, and may contribute to the various vibration related accuracy considerations such as bullet throw and compensation tuning.
The British were masters in mass production of swords, and I think this was carried over in the metalurgy of their rifles. Hard where hardness was needed and flexible where flexibility was advantageous.
Had the Enfield not been made of superior alloys it would have been far less sucessful.

Its said the Mauser was made of whatever metal was strong enough for the job, while the Enfield were made of the very best alloys available.
Mauser post WW1 were made of better steels than previously, perhaps they recognized the qualities of the British steels as a deciding factor in durability.


PS
RE the set back barrel. Be sure theres enough clearance in the end of the neck, otherwise it might bind with a crimp fitting into the chamfer but not opening up fully to allow the bullet to leave the neck without undue pull.

[303Guy]

... I had noticed that if I nudged the bolt handle up enough to leave daylight between action strap and underside of the handle there was almost no kick up.

Aah-hah! Thanks for that tip! Most of the time my LE don't kick up simply because the bolt closes firmly onto the loaded round. Actually, I'm not even sure any of them kick up. Mmm.... I can't be that lucky!

RE the set back barrel. Be sure theres enough clearance in the end of the neck, ...

Yup, thanks. My gunsmith did pass a reamer into the chamber. He did the same for my Dad's rifle. That one closes down firm on unfired cases, leaving a ring mark on the shoulder.

Both these rifles were pretty accurate. I was a bit unhappy when I couldn't get under 1¼ MOA groups at 100m with 10 shots. Mine had a free loating barrel with bedding under the Knox form and a full action body bedding.

[PAT303]

I had an EY rifle,in Oz they are painted with a yellow nose and I had it a few years before it let go,the action split through the middle but neither the bolt head or bolt or any other part of the action came away.I stripped it down and rebuilt it with a new frame and it's now had nearly 6000 rounds through it and shooting fine.Most LE have excessive headspace because they were used so much,in Aust hands they fought from the 1890's through to the late 1960's and the L42's lasted until the late 80's and the police only replaced thiers in the 1990's so those rifles did some work.The best advice I'll give is get the headspace done to the minimum setting,it's very easy to do and load and shoot just like any other rifle,forget oiling your ammo or any other stupid idea's,just fireform and neck size and keep cases to the one rifle only,most important enjoy shooting a classic military rifle. Pat

[Multigunner]

Aah-hah! Thanks for that tip! Most of the time my LE don't kick up simply because the bolt closes firmly onto the loaded round. Actually, I'm not even sure any of them kick up. Mmm.... I can't be that lucky!

Yup, thanks. My gunsmith did pass a reamer into the chamber. He did the same for my Dad's rifle. That one closes down firm on unfired cases, leaving a ring mark on the shoulder.

Both these rifles were pretty accurate. I was a bit unhappy when I couldn't get under 1¼ MOA groups at 100m with 10 shots. Mine had a free loating barrel with bedding under the Knox form and a full action body bedding.

The first beeding instructions I ran across stated that the center section of the side rails should not make contact.
I'll have to check the figures but I think its around 1 1/2 -1 3/4" from at the rear end and the same from the ring back that should be firmly bedded with the center section left free of contact. The ring should contact on a narrow strip at the bottom, and the knox for should contact with a tapered truncated triangular pad.
The barrel may work best free floating but a light upwards press several inches in front of the Knox Form is recomended. The bedding point being in the center between the routed out lightening cuts of the No.4 fore end.
At one time they used a narrow metal shim with teeth to dig into the wood at the barrel beeding point, but these sometimes were pressed deep in the wood as time went on reducing the upwards pressure.

At the action strap contact with the upper portion of the rear of the fore end, the area above the stirup, is more important than full contact.
If the rear of the fore end has spread trying to close the spread is counter productive, once warped outwards bringing it back together just shifts the side pressures somewhere else.

I'll dig out an old fore end I'd bedded long ago and check the measurements.

[303Guy]

Thanks Multigunner. I wonder whether my full bodied hand made fore-end would change how the best bedding would be?

I'm just going to have to pull this rifle out of storage and load up some cast boolits for it and see what it can do. Paper patching for it would be another test I can do but I did get promising results with plain cast a while ago. That was using a mold of my own making that was taylored for that throat. (I don't use it much because it is quite heavy and has no suppressor. I can fix that!)

This is the boolit that showed promise.


How I mounted the scope over the dust cover.

[bigedp51]

"Also I screwed the pin in an etra turn to shorten the gap between cocking piece and rear of the bolt. This reduced the play between the stud of the cocking piece and the retracting cam surface of the bolt, now the bolt could not kick up nearly as far if it did become loose again. A single extra turn cut the play in half."

The proper adjustment for this is called bolt head timing and has nothing to do with screwing the firing pin further into the cocking piece. You were working at the wrong end of the bolt......WARNING Bubba maintenance alert.

"When I'd earlier replaced the badly worn bolt of my No.4 it also lost any tendency to kick up, partly due to my having filed the underside of the handle to remove all contact with the action strap when closed. Not by design, but since the bolt handle had to be filed a bit anyway to allow the bolt to rotate fully closed."

I wonder why the manual states you should have .050 clearance between the bottom of the bolt and the receiver socket "WITHOUT" filing the bolt.

I wonder why the left edge of the resistance column must not rotate beyond the inner edge of the resistance shoulder of the body with a #3 bolt head fitted.

WARNING, Bubba bolt jump repair and maintenance alert worn actions have more bolt jump and it has nothing to do with the firing pin collar hitting the rear of the bolt head and making the bolt vibrate like a tuning fork.

When the Enfield is cocked you have the force of the firing pin spring pulling the bolt to the rear and the extractor spring pushing on the bolt from the front. When you pull the trigger you have 45,000 CUP pushing on the bolt lugs and the bolt CAN'T move. The bolt can NOT move upward until the chamber pressure is dissipated.






I wonder why a 03 Springfield that cocks on opening doesn't have bolt jump, but a Enfield that cocks on closing does.
I hope Mr. Sir Isaac Newton isn't rolling over in his grave and filing on the bottom of his apple.



I'm getting another migraine headache.............................

[303Guy]

bigedp51, may I 'borrow' your pic with the machine gun? I think it's brilliant!

[303Guy]

I'm kinda sure I have an almost unused No4 that has bolt lift. I also think it has an unreasonable bolt hande contact with the action strap. I'll have to pull it out and check.

[Multigunner]

I'm kinda sure I have an almost unused No4 that has bolt lift. I also think it has an unreasonable bolt hande contact with the action strap. I'll have to pull it out and check.

Well there should be contact when fully closed, so closing the bolt rapid won't unduly strain the bolt handle which I'm told is welded on. I don't see one snapping off, but I guess its possible.
The replacement bolt of my No.1 makes contact more fully than the old bolt if anything, but since everything else is now tight and solid theres no kick up.

What Mark LE is that with the scope?

[bigedp51]

"The barrel may work best free floating but a light upwards press several inches in front of the Knox Form is recomended. The bedding point being in the center between the routed out lightening cuts of the No.4 fore end."


The dark gray areas below are the bedding points for the No.4 Enfield with 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip. So tell me just when did they add bedding points between A, B, C, D, and E for "standard" military Enfield bedding????????????

If you notice the area between D and E is missing in the drawing because there are NO bedding points.



Don't tell me you were the one who donated these manuals on bedding the Enfield rifle.

I thought my name was Ed Horton..........Gee let someone read a Enfield manual and right away he becomes an "expert" Armourer

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3322

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=867

When are you going to stop this delusional act you are putting on from reading someone elses postings and then still getting it wrong???????

[303Guy]

Oh crud! All my Lee Enfields have bolt lift and have bolt handles that contact the action strap! (I have eight). The one that's hardly been used has the least bolt lift. I tried dry-firing it with clearance between bolt handle and action strap and the bolt drops!

Having just handle the No4, I am motivated to take for an outing! The boolits I have need to be sized to two-diameter to fit the throat after patching. It should accept the same boolits that fit the 1902 NoI with the No4 barrel.

[bigedp51]

bigedp51, may I 'borrow' your pic with the machine gun? I think it's brilliant!

NO! Only Americans are allowed to be that funny..............



Did I tell you I hated loosing the Americas Cup "And" loosing a Enfield postal match to the Australians

[Multigunner]

Oh crud! All my Lee Enfields have bolt lift and have bolt handles that contact the action strap! (I have eight). The one that's hardly been used has the least bolt lift. I tried dry-firing it with clearance between bolt handle and action strap and the bolt drops!

Having just handle the No4, I am motivated to take for an outing! The boolits I have need to be sized to two-diameter to fit the throat after patching. It should accept the same boolits that fit the 1902 NoI with the No4 barrel.

The kick up is pretty common, and not a reason for great concern unless excessive. Excessive kick up is a sign of wear, or poorly fitted parts, and should be addressed.
As I mentioned earlier the amount the handle can kick up can be reduced by fitting the firing pin so the stud on the cocking piece is a closer fit to the retracting cam surface of the bolt.
This can be done euther by screwing the pin into the cocking piece a bit further, or by filing the mating surface at the rear of the bolthead shank and shortening the tip of the pin to be sure it doesn't protrude too far. Proper pin protrusion is from .045 to .05.
The bolt handles normally should make contact with the strap if for no other reason than to avoid putting stress on the welded on handle, though some are not well fitted and can prevent the bolt from rotating fully closed. If the line of the guide rib is proud of the bolthead lug when the handle is fully down then theres to much contact.
If your ammo is fresh and not prone to hangfire, though most old milsurp .303 is prone to hangfires and misfires POF especially so, the handle has little time to lift before chamber pressure prevents further movement.

If my old bolts had not kicked up enough to reduce locking surface contact by aprox 20-25% I'd not have really taken notice of it and figured out why it happens.
I figure armorers used the amount of kick up as a tell to reveal potential problems and repair them.
Worn threads at the front of the bolt body seems a common cause. There main force keeping the bolt from turning if the knob is bumped when closed and cocked is the binding of the body to side walls due to spring pressure on the extractor. A weak spring may contribute but excessive side play of a loosely fitting bolthead is a far more urgent situation.

If the threads aren't too badly worn you may find another bolthead thats a better fit. If the threads are very worn its time for a replacement bolt body. Fortunately these are still to be found, both new old stock unissued and new condition used or complete bolts are available at reasonable prices.
If a bolt is badly worn its best to replace it now while parts are still available.

Much of the problems with poorly fitted firing pins may come from pins being replaced by untrained personel.
Several No.1 rifles I've examined had unfitted replacement pins still flat at the point. Armorers would shape the points as part of the final fitting operation, unissued pins were delivered with over long points still flat.
The point should be a sugarloaf profile, not too sharp of course.

You may find some useful information here
http://www.euroarms.net/EFD/manuali/No4Mk1Arm.pdf