303 Brit brass, preferences?

[Canuck Bob]

I'll be buying brass soon for a 303Brit in a Ruger no.1. Anyone have a preference? I am not worried about case stretching and would like the most consistent case thickness and volume for the brass.

Thanks for any help.

[felix]

Presently, Lapua makes the best rifle brass. 303 might be odd for them, however. ... felix

[docone31]

I am partial to Remington.
I get lots of loads with it. A Ruger #1, should be a snap.

[Multigunner]

I use Remington only these days, bought in bulk not reloaded once fired.
Some don't like Remington if they have a rifle with loose headspace, but I used a no.3 bolthead to bring my No.4 to a very close headgap, and replaced a damaged bolt to bring my No.1 to better than average headspace.
With the Ruger headspace should be minimal, if not I'd raise sand.

[Canuck Bob]

This info is beyond any expectation. No money to burn here! The truth is I just had to have a 303 Ruger.

Thanks

[PAT303]

One thing I do with new 303 cases is to first run them in a 8x57 die and then size back to 303 in a 303 FLS die to widen the neck and then load over 10grns of shotgun powder with the boolit seated to engage the lands.It sounds like work but if you load with one grade slower powder regardless wether you use jacketed or lead and neck size the cases last for years. Pat

[JeffinNZ]

Remington has given me a VERY good run but you can't beat DI V WWII GI brass from Canada.

[303Guy]

I have a little trick I use with my 303 brits. I lube the loaded cases with STP - not dripping or anything but nice and slippery. My cases last forever. What that does alloy the case to settle back against the bolt face early, while the pressure is still building. The shoulder then get formed into place and that's it. Neck size only and keep the cases lubed. This for a 1902 No.I MkI* Lee Enfield and my loads were not mild. That doesn't prevent neck splitting from failing to anneal regularly.

P.S. It has been demonstrated that a lube layer on a loaded cartridge does slightly raise chamber pressure. It does not increase boltface thrust (other than raising chamber pressure).

[3006guns]

Lubing the cases to allow easier forming with light charges is an old trick when the shoulder is too far back.......works well. Just don't gob huge amounts of grease on there! A small amount of STP or oil is all that's needed. The tapered portion of the case allows it to slide back on firing and presto! Now it fills the chamber properly and can be neck sized from that point on. This is assuming your head space is correct in the first place.

I agree on the Dominion Industries cases. I had a pile of surplus ammo and was merrily blasting away some years ago when I happened to look inside one of them. Holy Toledo.......they were boxer primed! Like an idiot, I ASSUMED they were berdan. I've been saving/reloading them ever since. Good stuff.

I haven't seen anyone mention Norma .303 cases yet and I'm really curious about everyone's opinion.....mostly because a friend gave me five boxes of unloaded brass just a few days ago. I really have to buy him lunch sometime.........

[3006guns]

You are correct and your information is correct........with full charge ammo. The pressure will allow the cartridge to slide to the rear and overload the bolt lugs horribly, especially in a semi auto. Brass is SUPPOSED to grip the chamber.

Cartridges that are greased (not oiled) are even worse. Grease does not compress and increases chamber pressures tremendously.

However, I think you missed my point. Done correctly with REDUCED forming loads only (light or NO projectile), it is an excellent, accepted way to put a case shoulder back where it belongs. You do this only once to form your case, cleaning the chamber of any excess lube between shots. Degrease your cases and load nomally afterwards and you have nice "chamber filling" brass. This info from a couple of books on case forming. I've actually used the "no projectile" approach, like a blank (6 grains Bullseye, COW filler, glue plug and oiled case). Loud report, no recoil and a nicely formed case.

Another method is to seat a light bullet so that it firmly touches the rifling. There will be a space in front of the shoulder, which will fill with expanded brass when fired. The danger in this is that the bullet may not exit the barrel with a light load.

Edit to 303guy: You shouldn't use the oil techique on full house ammo, but if you do (and with no ill effects) you should only have to do it ONCE. Your case is formed after that. Just neck size, shoot 'em dry and enjoy!

[sundog]

+1 on lightly oiling a case for forming on the first firing with a light load. Same thing with belted magnums (rim is just in a different place) to set the shoulder. A fellow club member who is a BR world record holder put me onto this several years ago. Works great for fixed lock up. For a gas gun? I wouldn't.

[curator]

Bob,

Would that we could buy Dominion brass still! Lacking that, I have excellent results with ANY commercial cases fire-formed new. The worst way to get brass is to fire new commercial ammo! The other posters have mentioned most of the good ways to insure that your cases expand forward on the first firing to set the shoulder with the case head held firmly against the breech face.

I personally like to seat my cast boolits long enough to contact the rifling leade as the bolt is closed. This not only gives the best accuracy but cases last nearly forever. While Winchester brass is my least favorite (I NEVER reload S&B brass!) It too will last 20+ firings when loaded to about 35,000 psi. If I bother to aneal case necks after each 10 loadings I can get even more as the only defect that my cases show after a lot of use is cracks around the case mouth.

[Canuck Bob]

Great discussion, thanks again.

I reloaded extensively 25 years ago and left the hobby dormant until this year. I always reloaded my own once fired factory ammo. For this rifle I have months to wait so the oppurtunity to custom load the brass and fire form on the first shot allows me to tailor the ammo from day one.

I will load to a medium pressure and seat the cast bullets to touch the lands. I used to get best accuracy this way years ago. Even then my loads were worked up to give best accuracy at 10-15% reductions from factory pressures.

It is hard to believe but 303 surplus ammo seems to be all but gone in Canada!

The PRVI brass looks interesting and in stock at Graf's. The Winchester and Remington brass is available locally.

Anyone bother to check the uniformity and thickness of the necks for any of these?

[3006guns]

"Since a great deal of fire forming operations involve moving the shoulder forward, headspace presents a problem. One solution is to lightly oil the forward part of the case before firing. This reduces the cases's grip on the chamber walls, allowing the entire case to be driven back against the bolt face by the powder gases." Source: "The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions" George Nonte 1967

Considerably before the internet and any "myths".

Again, we're talking apples and oranges. You are correct as far as FULL CHARGE ammo. The bolt thrust would be tremendous, as has been proven by several noted accidents. Most noteably during the high power shoots of the 1920's when competitors were trying to keep cupro nickel fouling in check. Someone discovered that applying grease to the bullet (not case) reduced the fouling. Unfortunately, the heated barrel would cause the grease to melt into the chamber eventually and .... boom. One destroyed Springfield. Mentioned in Hatcher's Notebook in the barrel obstruction section I believe.

When trying to fireform a case to fit a specific chamber, a light pistol powder charge combined with a lubricated case will allow the case to slide rearward and the shoulders to form correctly. Once the batch of cases is formed, you clean the chamber, cases, etc. and load normally......this time with a full charge load. Done.

[303Guy]

Mmmm..... A bit of a controversy there. I've had a Lee Enfield with excess headspace and a lubed case that the lubed case remained forward in the chamber with the primer sticking out. The next case had head separation. I have heard all these tales of doom and gloom regarding lubed cartridges but have never come across any proof.

Not to confuse greased ammo or ammo dipped in oil with a lightly lubed case. All excess lube must be removed - that's a no-brainer.

I did say I developed my loads with lubed cases and that the lube does raise chamber pressure some but 50% increase in bolt face thrust? Someone is BS-ing.

Case grip? It only accounts for about 10% of rearward thrust. Reducing will only increase thrust by a percentage of 10% One of the first signs of overload or excessive bolt face thrust in a Lee Endield is case elongation if it's lubed and case head separation if dry - it's a flexi-action. I get neither. Another sign of overload on a Lee Enfield is bolt lug set back. Hasn't happened. I Lube all my cases for all my guns always. I just can't see how a case head separation produces less bolt face thrust than a case that does not fail. I'm not recomending the practice to anyone, just telling what I do and that I'm quite confident that it's actually better for the firearm. And I can demonstrate it. (I've had to answer this one many times!)

Think of this. A case gets driven fully forward in the chamber on firing. It expands, grips the chamber walls, pressure continues to rise, the pressure acting on the unsuppoerted base of the case overcomes case wall friction and the case slams back onto the bolt face at full load. A lubed case still grips the chamber wall but alloys the case head to settle back at lower pressure so by virtue of progressive case elongation along it's length.. Notice how the striations on the case get shorter toward the neck?



Anyway - back to topic.

[Multigunner]

"Since a great deal of fire forming operations involve moving the shoulder forward, headspace presents a problem. One solution is to lightly oil the forward part of the case before firing. This reduces the cases's grip on the chamber walls, allowing the entire case to be driven back against the bolt face by the powder gases." Source: "The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions" George Nonte 1967

Considerably before the internet and any "myths".

Again, we're talking apples and oranges. You are correct as far as FULL CHARGE ammo. The bolt thrust would be tremendous, as has been proven by several noted accidents. Most noteably during the high power shoots of the 1920's when competitors were trying to keep cupro nickel fouling in check. Someone discovered that applying grease to the bullet (not case) reduced the fouling. Unfortunately, the heated barrel would cause the grease to melt into the chamber eventually and .... boom. One destroyed Springfield. Mentioned in Hatcher's Notebook in the barrel obstruction section I believe.

When trying to fireform a case to fit a specific chamber, a light pistol powder charge combined with a lubricated case will allow the case to slide rearward and the shoulders to form correctly. Once the batch of cases is formed, you clean the chamber, cases, etc. and load normally......this time with a full charge load. Done.

Since tightening headspace I've had no problem with case stretching.
One trick I picked up long ago is to mark the case rim and rotate the case 180 degrees on the second firing.
This results in a perfectly centered case in all subsequent firings.
I size only 2/3rds of the neck, the evenly expanded unsized portion of the neck along with evenly expanded case body presents the bullet to origin of rifling with out cant.

An undersized expander plug and no crimp works best for me.
Theres always some variation in pull strength when a crimp is used.
The less the pull strength, within reason of course, the less the effect of any variation.

[3006guns]

Actually, since the 303 British is a rimmed cartridge there's your headspace right there. It can only be corrected by either another bolt head or cases with thicker rims. The practice of using an O ring is pretty clever in that regard when used to "adjust" the case....JUST ONCE....and then reload normally afterwards. I was talking about just moving the shoulder forward while the rest of the case stays put.

303guy....I wasn't jumping on your technique, far from it! If your method works for you, terrific. I myself won't allow any lube on a case or in a chamber, unless I'm fireforming from one case to another (usually an antique) and have to move the shoulder forward. I always shoot dry.......the beer comes afterwards.

Actually, I'm lucky in one regard. I picked up an Ishapor several years ago at a batch price and the rifle is new.....or darn close to it. Chambering any of my cases, no matter who made them, requires just a bit of effort to turn the bolt handle down. Close headspace....since I'm shooting cast at moderate pressures, that gun will still be nice when someone else gets it down the road.

[wiljen]

I use a simple trick taught to me by a very smart Canadian to fire form undersized American SAAMI cases. Slip a rubber o-ring around the case, it will hold the case against the bolt face at "zero" head space and "center" the undersized cases in the chamber. (NOTE: over sized o-ring shown for photo purposes only...unless you own a really head space gifted Enfield)

I went out to Lowes today and bought 3 boxes of #47 sized o-rings to try this trick. Thanks much for mentioning it. I also need to order some PRVI brass

[sundog]

thanks, I'll stay with my lightly oiled cases for forming whenever I need to. It works just fine...

[303Guy]

Umm... I should just hasten to add that oil or grease in a chamber between case and chamber wall will likely atomize and inject that oil mist into the hot, oxygen rich, combustion zone and detonate! So all the cautioning should be well headed! (I am guilty of slightly overdoing the lube bit - the cases come out dry! So, don't do it! (Well, wiping the lube off is actually 'lubing' the loaded round).

By the way, bigedp51, thanks for posting that info!

Nor do any advocates of lubing or oiling cases have the pressure measuring equipment or strain gauges to prove their theories.

No, but the effect has been pressure measured and it does raise chamber pressure.