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Thread: NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master



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    NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim

    I was at the range again today and had an opportunity to chronograph the NOE 454424 bullet (250 grs) in my Model 625-6 (5" barrel).

    Here is the load and results:

    NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim Case
    7.0 grs of Unique
    Fed 150 Primer
    Starline Cases

    1- 881.2
    2- 944.2
    3- 906.4
    4- 899.2
    5- 905.2
    6- 908.1
    7- 910.4
    8- 931.2
    9- 921.1
    10- 911.1

    Average 911.8
    Hi – 944.2
    Lo – 881.2
    Extreme Spread – 63.0
    Std Dev – 17.3


    This puts the .45 Auto Rim in the same class as a factory .45 Colt with a considerably better shaped bullet. I would feel confident in deer hunting (with range limitations) with this combination. Elmer Keith used 7.5 grs of Unique and with my present lot of Unique, I would have NO problem in raising my load to 7.5 grs of Unique.



    There have been some comments that NEW Unique is a bit faster. So, I would want to first chronograph a slower load before increasing to the full 7.5 grs of Unique with this bullet. I would suspect that 7.5 of MY present lot of Unique may raise the velocity to the neighborhood of 1000 fps. That is an excellent field load, IMHO.


    FWIW
    Dale53

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    What I have a great deal of problem reconciling is the amount of Unique deemed "safe" by some to use with the heavy 454424 clone in the small Auto Rim case.

    I would myself never, ever, ever use that much Unique (7 to 7.5 grains) with the heavy 250 plus grain bullet in the small Auto Rim case, especially given my own results of comparable velocity with nearly a full GRAIN less powder than that using the Lyman 452424 (the original but .452" diameter version).

    Moreover, 7.5 grains would easily be a ++P+ load in my own five inch 625-3.

    I would strongly counsel anyone attempting to use Unique for the Auto Rim to start much, much below this level and slowly work up.

    I don't dispute that ca. 900 fps with a 250 grain SWC is safe; what I dispute is the amount of Unique it will take to get there. I cannot explain the great variance in results obtained by Dale and myself, but will note it exists.

    Also, consider that a +P load in 45 ACP pushes a 230 to 950 fps. A load of Unique obtaining ca. 1000 fps with a 250 grain bullet in the very similar capacity Auto Rim must be higher pressure yet. Also, consider that in my five in 1911's, 6.5 Unique with the 230 lead RN gets over 920 fps. Hmm. Revolver versus auto and the barrel/cylinder gap thing don't fully explain it. Nor does seating depth, as the 250 SWC doesn't seat less deeply than the 230 lead RN.

    I don't dispute the validity of Dale's results in his gun; I do dispute its universal applicability, as my gun gets comparable velocity with MUCH less powder. At least, compared to the normal small charge weight as a percentage.

    So, to repeat: Start low and work up, and don't think of duplicating these loads unless you have a chronograph to verify the actual velocity obtained! Please start at 6 grains or less, and chronograph before adding any more!

    Dale, I'm not stepping on your toes and hope you do not take it as such. I'm just suggesting a heavy bullet in the small Auto Rim case deserves extra caution in working up the load, especially with the known tendency of small cases and heavy bullets to ramp pressures up greatly.
    Last edited by 35remington; 04-15-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master



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    35remington;
    You will get NO guff from me for safety cautions.

    One of the reasons I specifically stated "NOE 454424" is that Lyman from time to time has changed the design of the Keith bullet drastically. Casual looking, the different bullets often look the same but the seating depth is materially different. There was an excellent article in one of the major gun magazines that showed a couple of Lyman variations.

    It is quite possible that my NOE bullet is materially different from YOUR version of the Lyman 452424.

    Again, this is a good reason to ALWAYS question third party accounts.

    Again, Lyman cast bullet data and SAAMI have materially different pressure limits for the Auto Rim case and the .45 ACP case even tho' they have essentially the same capacity. This is simply because the Ammunition Companies have always loaded the Auto Rim with soft lead bullets (swaged) and got serious leading if they drove them faster.

    A good cast bullet can be driven the velocities that I have reported within proper pressure limits (the revolvers easily handle +P .45 ACP loads) without any suspicion of leading. Shoot those same loads with lead bullets furnished by the ammo companies and you have horrible leading. Been there and done that...

    Stay safe, folks.

    Here is a page from the Lyman Cast Bullet book:



    I would caution anyone reading this to NOT try to use this data in a 1917 revolver. The cylinders were not heat treated. The loads should only be used in S&W and Ruger revolvers made after 1950 or so.

    Thosands of shooters have used these loads without issue.

    Dale53
    Last edited by Dale53; 04-15-2010 at 08:49 PM.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master



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    Many years ago, before I knew better, I used 7.5grs of Unique with the Lyman 454424 bullet. This was a less than disirable version of this bullet that weighed 262gr, and had a rnd grease groove. I used these loads in 1917 S&W, and Colts, as well as a .455 S&W with a shaved cylinder. I used these loads in AR, and ACP cases with a roll crimp, and Half moons. I no longer think this is a good idea in these old guns. However I never had any problems, and consider my 625s perfectly safe with BB .45 super loads. I do agree that all heavy loads should be worked up to in your own gun, and caution is the order of the day.
    JMHO-YMMV
    dd884
    gary@2texastrucks.com
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  5. #5
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    I shoot simular loads out of my 625 but put the cap at 6.5 grains to keep from beating up the gun.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Whenever a discussion of the 454424 comes up I have to ask "WHICH ONE" ? The design has been all over the map through the years and the weight has been quite variable !

    All of the bullets in this old photo are "454424". All but the bullet on the right are IDEAL or LYMAN products !!! The right hand bullet is the 45 2.1 Catshooter Group Buy. We could also add the NOE and BRP versions as well (both are very slight variations of the 45 2.1 design).



    Jerry
    S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GLL View Post
    The right hand bullet is the 45 2.1 Catshooter Group Buy. We could also add the NOE and BRP versions as well (both are very slight variations of the 45 2.1 design). Jerry
    The drawings sent to these folks were all the same (except maybe the BRP due to ogive radius parameters which actually should be unnoticeable; the band & GG arrangements were all the same), as per the original Catshooter GB. If the boolits are different, then the mold maker didn't cut them to spec.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    45 2.1:

    I should have underlined the "very slight" part !

    Your design is easily my favorite variation of the 454424 and the BRP moulds my favorite to cast with !



    Jerry
    S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Dittoes to all the above commentary on the variances of Lyman/Ideal #454424. I own Ideal single-cavity and a much later Lyman double cavity editions of this design, and the two designs are noticeably and obviously different. Both shoot well, and don't vary as to point of impact downrange--but the variance still bugs me, and I segregated them until I shot off all the S/C products. I should sell the mould and its differing S/C counterpart in #454190, as one of those small de-complications of life as a caster and reloader. One of these days.

    I do prefer the fat drive band versions. Sacrificing drive band integrity/strength to maximize lube capacity is a non-starter to me, esp. since we no longer use bacon fat or bear grease as bullet lube. Just sayin'.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  10. #10
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    The NOE version is fast becoming one of my favorites
    in the auto rim.



    Only shooting 6Gr. but it is nice to now I can run it
    hotter if I want.

    Swede Nelson
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    More people die from worrying about getting ate by a bear then get ate by a bear.

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    Looks like I may have to buy another pound of Unique. I finally got my 452423 mould in production. Nothing like getting an old friend back in action.

    I have lost my notes from when I had this mould last. Memory tells me that I was using 7 grains of Unique, but we all know how reliable memory is. Some went through my M1917 Colt, and I definitely remember cutting those back to 6 grains.

    I have a lot more Power Pistol than I do Unique. Power Pistol does so well in the .45 ACP, it intrigues me to want to try it in the AR case with the 452423.

    The 454424 is fine, but I have a sentimental attraction to my 542423 mould.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    grendelbane:

    The older LYMAN 452423 is indeed a nice bullet for .45AutoRim !

    I prefer to use the 45 2.1 designed 454423 Catshooter Group Buy version !

    Jerry

    S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman Accumulator

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    grendelbane,

    pm sent.
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

    I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.

    Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master



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    The NOE 454424 is just a nice bullet for the .45 Auto Rim as well as the .45 Colt. I have not shot any game with mine, but based on past experience with similar bullets it will be a WINNER!

    It shoots very well, and cuts a nice clean hole in a target. It makes it easy to score.

    FWIW
    Dale53

  15. #15
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by grendelbane View Post
    Looks like I may have to buy another pound of Unique. I finally got my 452423 mould in production. Nothing like getting an old friend back in action.
    grendelbane,
    Noticed that this was your first post on the forum.
    Welcome to the madness!

    Ya know, Unique is such a great all around powder and does so many things well in so many different calibers, you should consider buying an 8 lb. keg of Unique rather than just one pound. Funds permitting of course...

    Hmmm, just checked my powder stock. Looks like I need to take my own advice.
    I have less than one pound here!
    Matt

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  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    I have used Keith's old load of 452423/7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case in S&W sixguns for well over 40 years with nary a problem. I have killed several deer with that load.

    I have Pre-war Colt and Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP but I would not shoot that load in them. I do shoot them in a pair of 1955 Target Models and a 5" 625. I don't think they batter the pistols one bit.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chargar View Post
    I have used Keith's old load of 452423/7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case in S&W sixguns for well over 40 years with nary a problem. I have killed several deer with that load.

    I have Pre-war Colt and Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP but I would not shoot that load in them. I do shoot them in a pair of 1955 Target Models and a 5" 625. I don't think they batter the pistols one bit.

    Chargar

    From your 1955 Models, what kind of veocity are you getting with the 423 boolit? I use that load in my 25-2 and a 4" N frame but do not have access to a chronograph.

    Thanks.
    Knowledge I take to my grave is wasted.

    I prefer to use cartridges born before I was.

    Success doesn't make me happy, being happy is what allows me to be successful.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    guys,
    if you take his boolit weight, and his ave velocity mixed with bbl length(tricky with a revolver)
    and throw the data in quick load , it says the pressure is around 15.5kpsi.

    a safe load.

    will this be the same in everyone's gun, of couse not.


    i would like his oal for this load. and how easy did the cases come out ?

    i had to bump case volume up to get the velocity to come down to his average.
    i think he should throw out the first shot...maybe low due to cold clean bbl ?

    if i take the set up as i have it, i can go to 7.4 for 17.3kpsi and 960 fps....rigth at MAX for the original gun/cartridge.

    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master



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    mike in co;
    First of all, the cases ejected (all six at once, of course) without any resistance.

    LOA in Starline Cases and the NOE 454424 bullet is 1.247". The seating depth is .320". The bullet weight is 253 grs (WW's + 2% tin).

    It appears that Elmer Keith knew what he was doing, huh?! Since my 625 is rated for Plus P loads (23,000 psi) I will be putting no excess stress on my revolver if I used the 7.5 grs of Unique as a standard "heavy" load. Should be entirely safe.

    As a matter of interest, I will be shooting these for field use only.

    My standard range use will continue to be a MiHec H&G #68 Clone 200 gr bullet ahead of 4.0 grs of Bullseye (or equivalent from 7625, Titegroup, 231 or Red Dot).

    The NOE bullet behind 7.0-7.5 grs of Unique will offer a great deal of versatility to the 625.

    Dale53

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    well when i throw in the new data, i can only go to 7.3 with std saami, but with 23k of plus p the 7.5 is only 18k at 960.....

    was pretty close the first time.


    looks good to me in a modern firearm.

    mike in co
    Last edited by mike in co; 04-27-2010 at 01:57 AM.
    only accurate rifles are interesting

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check