Cast bullet in Japanese Type I

[aimlowsqueeze]

I recently acquired a Japanese Type I rifle. With factory loads, it was about 2' high above the point of aim, but dead on right to left at 100 yards. I first tried some IMR 4895 (28 grains to 30 grains in .5 grain increments) behind a 143 grain Lyman, sized to .266 and gas checked. They were all pretty good and the 30 grain load was dead on right and left, but still a little bit high also at 100. One of my shooting buddies recommended trying Blue Dot loaded to the specs listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Book for 2400. At 14 grains, the point of impact was correct for a 6 o'clock hold at 100 yards, but about 2' to the right. 14.5 grains pulled it slightly left, as did 15 and 15.5. The closest point of impact to point of aim was about 4" to the right and dead on with 15.5 grains. I know this rifle has a progressive right hand twist. Could the low velocity in the Blue Dot be causing the travel to the right? That is my theory right now...Anybody have any experience with the Type I? I am thinking that I will need to push this cast bullet at around 2000 fps in this rifle, what do you guys think?

[Buckshot]

..................I don't think the Italian made rifles for Japan had a gain twist barrel. I could be wrong though.

If you achieve any kind of accuracy at all with cast lead in that 6.5 at 2K velocity I'll be amazed. You might get up to 1800 fps but I don't know how repeatable the groups will be. No bueno por ca-ca with cast+high velocity+ that fast twist. At least in the Swede!

If you are good for elevation but only 4" right at 100 yards, just tap the front sight blade over to the right a tiny bit (assuming you can?).

...............Buckshot

[aimlowsqueeze]

Buckshot,

Thanks for the reply...as far as the progressive twist goes, I am just passing along information that I got from the so-called "experts" that I shoot military bolt action competition with, but it appears that you are exactly right, according to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook the barrel is a 1 in 9" twist. I know the Swede can't be pushed at 2000 fps with cast bullets, I throw mine at about 1600 and my best group so far was about 1.38" at 100 yards. This Type I may just be one that doesn't care for cast bullets. I may try a reduced load with a jacketed 139 grain bullet. The recoil on this rifle is so negligible, even with jacketed bullets, that I don't mind it at all. I was just trying cast bullets to eliminate wear on the barrel. I am going to try as cast, gas checked and pan lubed with IMR 4895, starting at 26 grains and working up in .5 grain increments until I find the sweet spot.

[45 2.1]

[quote=BuckshotIf you achieve any kind of accuracy at all with cast lead in that 6.5 at 2K velocity I'll be amazed. You might get up to 1800 fps but I don't know how repeatable the groups will be. No bueno por ca-ca with cast+high velocity+ that fast twist. At least in the Swede!Buckshot[/quote]

Dang Rick, have you ever tried doing it? Lyman manual #44 & #45 list an accuracy load for the 6.5 Jap & Swede at 1858 fps and 1941 fps respectively for the 266469. I've shot them both and they both print under 2 MOA for me in several rifles over many years. Some other loads do about the same. Slow them down to 1800 fps or lower and they do better. Why you guys can't get them to shoot is a mystery to me.

[Pepe Ray]

Buckshot,
How do you I.D. the Italian made carbines from the Nip?
I've got an inherited 6.5 carbine (buberized) with all (most) of the metal intact.
I never knew the Italians made stuff for the Japs.
TIA, Pepe Ray

[bruce drake]

The Type I rifles have a split bridge mannlicher action like a carcano while the Arisaka's we are familiar with are like Mausers.

[aimlowsqueeze]

The Type I has the typical Carcano type action and bolt. The stock is typical Japanese with a two-piece butt. I believe this rifle is just a little shorter than the Type 38 also. The Italians made about 60,000 of these rifles for the Japanese navy in 1938 or 1938 depending on what article you can find and read. Mine is in great shape, if I can just the thing to shoot cast bullets like it shot jacketed!

[Pepe Ray]

Gotcha!
Thanks guys, I was fearin' that my T38 was sired by someone else.
I had mine rechambered to 6.5x55 back when Remchester first offered the new
ammo. Wish now I'd gone w/ 6.5/08 wildcat. .308 brass is SOOO much easier/cheaper. Guess this shows that even an old dog can learn.
Pepe Ray

[StarMetal]

Pepe,

I had an Arisaka Type 38 rebarreled to 260 Rem. It's not as easy as just screwing a barrel on. You have to slowly and carefully open up the feed rails, exstenively, to get it to feed. At first it wouldn't even hold but four rounds to give you an ideas of how much work. I"m sorry I didn't go with the 6.5 Swede now as it's skinner round.

Joe

P.S. Edited in. Yes I know Pepe's rifle is Italian and different from the Type 38, but they both were designed to use the 6.5 Jap round which is alot skinnier then the 308 class of cartridges.

[bruce drake]

I have a 6.5 Jap that I was debating on moving over to 260 Remington. THanks for the heads up on the feedrails. SInce I already reload for 6.5 Jap, it's staying as one.

Bruce

[straightshooter1]

I have struggled with my 6.5 Jap. I have a very nice sporterized model, one of those done in the late 50s, much like my Uncle's when I was a kid. His, however, was one of those made into the 6.5/257, & though he always refeffed to it as a 257 Roberts, it wasn't. His was very accurate, and I always wanted one like it.

I looked hard for one this nice, and grabbed it when I found it. I have had many full militaries and, actually, the first center fire I had was a Type 38 6.5 in 1960 or '61.

They are capable of fine accuracy, IMO, and with Sierra MKs, I can get near an inch from the bench with this one. It is the most accurate 6.5 Jap I have owned and beats my 96 Swede regularly. However, this is with jacketed bullets.

I had no difficulty finding a cast load that shot well in the 6.5 Swede (which now seems amazing having read the threads here on the Swede).

The Jap with cast is another story. It shoots horribly, very inconsistent, nothing approaching a group, and, if there are two holes in the paper near each other, it is pure luck.

I hope to find a load thru this Board that shoots in my rifle. I think I have tried every listed load-sadly I failed to keep records. I think I will start over and reslug the bore tonight, load 20 with each load listed in my older Lyman #45, and try again.

If you have any suggested loads, I'd appreciate hearing about them.

Bob

[45 2.1]

I had no difficulty finding a cast load that shot well in the 6.5 Swede (which now seems amazing having read the threads here on the Swede).Bob

Most everybody except me and another fellow has said that same tired "I can't get it to shoot above 1650 fps" thing. Good to see someone else who knows how (above that level).

Try the IMR 4895 accuracy load listed for the Lyman 266469 in the #44 or #45 manual in your Jap rifle. It's shot to the sights and pretty well in several rifles now.

[straightshooter1]

Thanks, 45 2.1 and, as I said, I am gonna reslug the barrel to make sure I did not mess up. It was right at .264 IIRC so I have .266 boolits. I will try that load first. I think it was Lyman's accuracy load w/the 143 grainer again IIRC.



Bob