12GA FH Slug Tester --

[hubel458]

More powder is needed and IMR 4759 burns little cleaner,
we use over 90gr of 4227 and 4759 in 3" plastic cases with 600gr Dixie slugs.
So you really have just a starting load.Most chambers can take
.010" expansion without sticking in the 3" REM cases I tested.
I think Rem may be a little heavier than others. Go up 3gr at a time.
We also use BPGS seal and a flexseal cushion which moderates
peak pressure better than hard cards. Add a fiber wad
over these two for a round ball. We even have used 90gr 4759
for a 730 gr Dixie.And lab tested ok.Ed

[Smoke73]

Tried a load of 60grns 4227 and a starter of 7grns Longshot. Tried a plastic wad setup this time and things were worse not better. First shot ok, second left lots of residue and the third just went pop and hit the dirt. What am I missing. Went through old posts and noticed comments that for reloader 17 to work powder level must be kept up and lots of compression is needed. Does this hold true for the imr 4227? Any help would be appreciated.

[hubel458]

Yes the loads with all three , 4759,4227, Re17 have had to be
80 gr to start reliably for me. That is in my REM cases, that do
not have a recess around the protrusion that the primer
cup goes up into. I don't know if your Cheddites have that recess.
If they do like the red Federal 12ga cases I have here,
then the small amount of starter powder will be in that recess
and will be of no use in primary ignition, as the fire from the
primer cup flashhole goes straight out to front of the case.

You must have good compression and roll crimp. And more
powder, guys have used 90gr 4759.4227 in regular barreled
modern guns just fine.AS far as getting good compression
with roundballs. as I did a few at first it isn't the best design
to roll crimp and get good compression.

Guys shooting Mossys, Rems,etc are the ones
who told me about 4759. 4227. You don't use them in old
thin barrel guns, damascus guns. The 90gr loads have been lab tested just fine, by them and by me....Ed

[happyfast79]

Any advice on where to find 10 guage slugs or molds for them? i have a browning bps and some .760 round balls that ive tried and am going to try working up with 2 qnd 3 ball loads. any advice?

[hubel458]

You could check with NEI. Mtn Molds, Grafs, Dixie Gunworks.Lyman.
I know Lee does 12ga ones for 12ga wadcups., check with them.
For 10ga slugs guy in AZ- Bob- 480-861-3692 ..Ed

[Smoke73]

Found some 4759 and I'm much happier. Worked up to 80 grns with good compression and now she's a new ballgame. I'm stopping there as my barrels are not overly heavy and at only 7.25 lbs she's a real handful for me. As one buddy put it "that is just plain violent". That being said I'm done with pistol/shotgun powder for slugs. I'm getting less casehead expansion and pushing the gun further ballistically than most would believe. Thanx Ed. Your research has definate real world applications.

[hubel458]

That is what is the best thing about using 4227, 4759, RE17, and
7383 surplus, is safety and less case expansion, but with higher speeds
that are possible. These start slower and get to peak pressure slower
which is a great safety factor------Example.

If a guy has a 1 oz, 437 gr slug speedy load figured out with one of
those four and he goes to 600 gr with same amount of one of these
he won't blow up the gun where with the real fast shotgun powders
he might damage the gun or blow out the case.

If guys have got modern barrels of .90" od muzzle they can do 90gr
of 4759. Like Savage 210, Mossberg 695, Mossy,Rem, etc pumps,
autos, because these actions take magnum goose/turkey peak pressures
and that is what our slow powder loads do.ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

[tommygirlMT]

Yoo! --- Hubel ! --- you do any work with the modernized BP substitute powders that have just come out on market that are so clean burning that they are nearly smokeless --- WP's BlackHorn 209 & Alliants Black-MZ --- specifically come to mind?

Just makes me think --- the old black powder dram loads were a lot of powder doing a long slow push at low pressure --- and those powders are designed to do the same thing as the original BP only without the mess and corrosion --- I mean a dram is 1/16 of an ounce so those old loads that were 3 dram or more loads were a lot of grains of powder --- so one of the new technology clean burning modern BP substitute that can be loaded the same way sounds like it might work really good for slug loading

[hubel458]

The only substitute I had to use pyrodex didn't seem clean to me
so I never bothered with any others.. ..Later as I get time
I'll check the ones you mentioned.ED

[Smoke73]

I tried Blackhorn 209 disappointing at best. Triple seven was ok but need to watch crux buildup and has been known to pressure spike.

[hubel458]

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

[hubel458]

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

[hubel458]

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

[hubel458]

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.




Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.




Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

[Al in Mi]

Ed, where did you get that Fosbery type slug?

[hubel458]

That isn't mine I just copied the picture.
Someone may sell a mold like that. It is a neat
crimping idea for paper case, I don't know if that
can be done with plastic. Sure gives more room
for slow powders.Ed

[peter nap]

Ed, what slug is that in pictures 2-4?

[hubel458]

If your asking about the brass slug in brass case it is a
turned slug that Rob on AR makes.Ed