Paper Sabot for MLing??

[10 ga]

How thick can you make a paper sabot? IE. can you make paper sabots to shoot .430 & .451s in .50 and .401 & .430s in a .450? I was reading the .17 sabot thread and realized that if I can build my own sabots I have a much larger selection of boolits to use in my MLs and paper sabots would be cheaper than $8-10 per 50 for plastic sabots AND I won't have to clean the plastic out the barrel and the paper sabots may well be sturdier than plastic and not as sensitive to barrel heating etc... Would I have to PP the sabot? How should I build the sabots? Could I build a sabot for a certain size boolit and then use same calibre boolits or would each sabot be made individually for each boolit? I have shot patched roundball, minies and REAL boolits for 50+ years and plastic sabots for 15 years so I'm familiar with that but I've never used paper except to replicate musket ammo for my .58 and.69. I'm mostly thinking of this for my Savage ML II where I shoot 4759 and for my new Encore where I plan to use White Hots and Blackhorn 209. Can you suggest some searches to do if this has been covered before? I'm sure there are some Qs about this that I haven't considered but I'm sure they will surface soon enough. These are a lot of Qs but I'm soooooo new to the PP idea. Thanks to all and WOW for the knowledge that shows up on CB board. Best to all! 10 ga

[montana_charlie]

Following the vein which includes teflon tape, aluminum foil, heat shrink tubing, starched cloth, and any number of 'substitutes' for preventing lead/steel contact...somebody posted a thread wherein he tried to mould sabots made from paper-mâché.
As I recall, he had no good results to report, but a search for that may further your understanding of the concept.
CM

[Don McDowell]

You might want to get ahold of the book Muzzleloading Caplock Rifles by Major Ned Roberts, and pay particular attention to the chapter on paper patching for those muzzleloaders.

[docone31]

I have found, and this is with smokeless powder, The patches only work if they are solid.
By that I mean, if the paper has dried and is "hard". Loose patches do not work.
I have no experience with BP patching, however, I am guessing the principles are the same.

[Old Coot]

I have shot -with good results- paperpatched bullets in my whitworth. The bore is .451 across the flats. I used .43 Mauser pure lead bullets sized .446 and wrapped two layers with Morilla Tracing paper, let dry and sized to .451. The hexagonal nature of the barrel prevents using harder or larger bullets. FNFo lube on the outside of the paper but some wax or LLA for the sizing.

[mocons]

I have experimented and use several different designs of my own to shoot .308 diameter in my 32 muzzleloader, .458 bullets in my 50 caliber, 401 and .429 in my 45 muzzleloader. I designed the paper-sabots a CAD system, and so far, I have been cutting by hand. They work well, again, so far.
i have used several different "papers" including notebook paper (.003) card stock (.008 and .010), Construction paper (.006-.0065), Sketchbook paper (.007), Computer paper (.0035), Wallmart color posterboard (.015) chipboard"(cardboard) from .018-.024.
I cut the paper to a particular prcision design, and i use lube on the paper. I won't use paper that has a clay content, but the rest is fair game.
It is the joy of muzzleloading to experiment.

[mocons]

The heavy papers are formed into a 'paper sabot", and the thinner papers can be used if necessary , to adjust the diameter. The program includes a loading tube which is slightly over the groove diameter at the loading end and at least .004-.004 over that at the starting end. The tubes I use are aluminum or brass or copper and lend themselves well to the task. For instance, when I load a tube for the .32 (aluminum and 2" long) the larger end is actually about .34 diameter(inside). I use a construction paper "sabot" alone (oiled first) and push the paper and .308 bullet into the loading tube all the way to the swaged end (0.323") of the tube- flush or a little beyond. I can fill the space above the bullet in the loading tube with a charge (40 gr, fff) and close the end with a plastic cap. To load the sabboted .308 into the rifle, I pull the cap_pour the powder_and use the starter to wack the bullet and sabbot into the muzzle_follow with the ramrod to seat against the powder... The paper leaves the bullet at the muzzle, and if I can holder right.. well it works. The same design is true for the other calibers, just use appropriate sized tubes / lengths for the intended load. Heavy loads sometimes are helped by use of a thin cardboard wad below the paper sabot cup. I experiment with bullets and sizes a lot, but I have found that softer is better (most of the time), and of course for the slow twist .32,
shorter is better too. The goal is a near- groove sized combination that loads easy for minimum or no deforming of the bullet nose. It is the joy of muzzleloading to experiment.

[montana_charlie]

It's good to hear that you have found a method which satisfys your desire to experiment with paper sabots in muzzloading rifles.
Those who post in the Muzzleloading section ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16 ) would probably be even more impressed by your success than we who wrap bullets for use in metallic cartridges.

If your interest ever switches to paper patching in the classic BPCR sense, be sure to come on back.

CM

[303Guy]

Well, I'm impressed. Make that pleased! And interested. Photos would be nice.
And I see no reason why the same principle could not be used in breach loading metalic cartridge rifles like when we might want to experiment.

[mocons]

I would like to experiment with the same principle in a cartridge rifle, but there are features of a muzzleloading gun that lend themselves to experimentation. Most notable is the fact that I can use any powder charge, within reason, without worrying about the empty space between small charges and the bullet base, and I am not limited, again, within reason, to a particular case capacity. The advantage to using a cartridge is the ability to use in a repeater. A special bullet seating die would have to be fabricated to handle the paper and sabot combination, and I would expect that the sabot would need to be limited to length so that it would not extend beyond the mouth of the cartridge case. That would mean that the bullet nose would need to be short to prevent an unsupported nose condition. I suppose that the sabot / bullet combination could be developed that would use a "heel" shank with a step up to the diameter of the bore (or a little bigger) for a bore ride effect. I prefer to keep the lead away from the steel personally.
What I like about my design is the fact that the paper falls away instantly at the muzzle and will not affect the bullet flight. I use lube to keep the fouling soft enough to allow me to essentially clean the bore with each succeding round in the muzzleloader, and I use a stiff cardboard wad below the sabot sometimes just to aid with that feature of the loading process. I wonder how the same system would work in a breach loaded rifle, and I doubt that I would be able to keep up a continual fire without stopping every shot or two to wipe the bore. If that would be the case, I doubt that there would be as much advantage to a repeater over my muzzleloader. The "trick" if there is one, is to get that loading tube straight with the bore (alignment) so that the package will not be damaged in some way at the loading. Soft bullets that obdurate means that I have additional tolerance with the diameter of the loaded projectile. An easy loading combination is best for accuracy, which is why softer bullets work best, I suspect anyway.

[RugerFan]

Very interesting. I have some .411" bullets that I would like to shoot in my .50 cal ML. A paper sabot might be just the trick. I guess that would take a fairly thick patching though.

[powderburnerr]

45 nut and I saboted some 440 bullets to 70 some calibre, we got a lot of confetti, a big cloud of smoke ., and a 440 bullet with the velocity of a rock thrown by a girl, this is documented at the cast bullet shoot in winnamucca,
so it does say that there is a point where the sabot is too big and the pressure blows past the projectile......... but we had fun ,, the sabot if memory serves was a 1/2 newspaper torn into 1 in strips and wrapped til snug......Dean

[RugerFan]

45 nut and I saboted some 440 bullets to 70 some calibre, we got a lot of confetti, a big cloud of smoke ., and a 440 bullet with the velocity of a rock thrown by a girl, this is documented at the cast bullet shoot in winnamucca,
so it does say that there is a point where the sabot is too big and the pressure blows past the projectile......... but we had fun ,, the sabot if memory serves was a 1/2 newspaper torn into 1 in strips and wrapped til snug......Dean

Good information. I sure hope my Chrony readout never tells me "You throw like a girl." Too funny.

[idahoron]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ad.php?t=71134

[ResearchPress]

Paper patched bullets are commonly used by in long range muzzle loading. Usual method is the double wrap.

I'd be wary of trying to patch too small a diameter bullet up for use. You may find the bullet doesn't expand enough and all you end up with is a paper patch spinning around the bullet.

David

[mocons]

I will try to post some pictures as soon as I take some and learn to upload them.
The whole package is sort of a metalic cartridge for a ML. I use the metal because it can be swaged to the slightly over bore diameter that seems to work best. A plastic tube could be designed to "choke" the diameter down also.. or maybe the plastic could be machined? The plastic may just hjave too much "give".
The fist tubes I made have a wood plug fitted to seal the open end. I found I could get 100 plastic caps for < $5 at McMaster -Carr. I found out the wood shrinks too much, and loose powder in my pocket is not real desireable.
Though it is not "foolproof", I am still working on a way to make more certain that the tube is alligned well enough with the bore. And, Yes, it works with a RB too, even better, cause the allignment is not as much an issue. I use them with GG bullets too, and it works great. Very handy little things. I have the printable designs for the sabots that I have tried, and I found that the best is to have the entire diameter "wrapped" and no gaps. Uniform paper thickness is important, and so is a relatively dense , not soft, paper works best too. (the chipboard) I print the designs with my ink-jet printer and cut them out by hand.. If it is a success, I may have some punches made to take the tedium out of it.