Why I don't like inlines - GRAPHIC!

[waksupi]

It would seem that if a breechplug was going to be made in that fashion ,the threaded part should have been butting against the bore, rather than the slip fit forward portion. That just doesn't make sense. Theoretically, the length of the threads is appropriate, as threading beyond the diameter of joined pieces, adds nothing to strength. Was the treading reversed, it would eliminate the problem, I would think.

I'll stick with flinters.

[mike3132]

Revenge bone to pick with Savage or not, this guy is dead right in my opinion. No way I would own a Model 10ML II with that breech plug. Doesn't take a Nasa engineer to figure this one out.

Holy cow, I can't believe Savage has not corrected that. .050 steel thickness eventually getting exposed to gas pressures upwards of 50,000 psi? Can we say "possible metal fatigue likely" or ticking time bomb Bullwinkle?

I guess it's cheaper to ignore the white elephant in the room and pay for occational damages...

That is plain nuts.

Believe what you want.........if I could tell the whole story about Bridges, Savage and the Balls you might come to a different conclusion.

Ive shot the Savage since the gun came out and put 1000's rounds down the barrel with no ill effect. I feel the gun is as save or safer than any other muzzle loader on the market.

Shooter's error caused the accidents, plain and simple. Mike

[PatMarlin]

We all come to our own conclusions, make our own decisions and I respect yours, but will respectfully stick by mine.

I never felt good about stirring up the waters with a smokeless muzzle loader, but one with a design flaw such as this one- forget about it. That is a recipe for eventual disaster IMO. Metal stress and fatigue happen over time and number of firings.

It's very expensive for a company to admit "We made a mistake" roll back a product and advertising campaign. Recall everyone of them, plus lose future sales and pay off indisputable law suits for years to come.

I would bet the odds of accidents happening are very low simply because not enough numbers of shots are fired by the majority of users.

Think business doesn't add up all the odds and scenarios? I still bet it's way cheaper to ignore the elephant.

[waksupi]

Mike, having a "You don't know what I know" argument is weak. If you have facts, state them. Making statements like that, puts you in the tin foil hat crowd.

[John Taylor]

I read the article by Toby Bridges and while I agree that there is a problem with gas cutting I don't think it caused the barrel to burst. First the threads are not a tapered pipe threads so they do not seal the breach. Any gas leaking past the breach sealing area will not be held by the threaded area. Second, the burst seems to have it's center a few inches from the breach plug indicating that the high pressure was in that area and the rips went in both directions. I have been a gunsmith for a while and have seen my share of burst barrels. Most of the time there will be a mark or ring in the area where the burst started like if there were a bore obstruction. There is a thing called detonation with smokeless powder that happens sometimes and they can't seem to duplicate it in testing. A friend had a SA 45 that took the top of the cylinder off and the top strap , yet the bullet was still in the target group. The powder he was using would not allow a double charge and no one can say just what caused it to blow.
It is my humble opinion that there was an air space between the powder and bullet which would account for the center of the burst to be a few inches from the breach. This can also allow for detonation. If it were detonation I would think the bullet had been about the end of the tear, possibly allowing 4-5" of air space.
As for the gas cutting problem I'll leave that to Savage to figure out.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I'm not a purist when it comes to front loaders but also I don't like inlines they just don't look right. I shoot only side lock cap locks. Flint locks take a lot of concentration to prep for shooting and thats ok because they are great looking and make lots of extra smoke. I think in lines should be classed along with cartridge rifles for hunting. Most states set up hunting with MLs as a primitave hunting sport. Enough said. I feel real bad for the guy though.

[waksupi]

Flintlocks do take concentration. Here is a clip from one of our club members that is always in the top shooters. Observe the proper follow through for a flint lock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7R1VzjDYAA

[dukenukum]

[QUOTE=Captain*Kirk;828691]Youch!
Read my lips: Muzzleloaders are for black powder or BP substitute and don't use shotgun primers or sabot slugs or any of that newfangled ****. Those morphodites are ML's in theory only. If you want a .338 WinMag, buy one.
Just my opinion, but a valid one![/QUOTE
Testify, my brother these guns are called mutant loaders in my group. real Muzzle loaders have flint locks, percussion caps or match locks.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I'm sure glad I'm not the only one to be waiting in line, "pun intended," to shoot my cap lock. I'm getting to old to start a new shooting game, maybe in my next life. The rock locks are beautiful guns but I just don't have enough time left. Besides I would have to sell several of my other shooters to afford one.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I'm heading out on vacation, Utah, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and places unknown. Be back in about a month.

[Swampman]

Inlines are as safe as any firearm. They are very easy to maintain. I like all muzzleloaders and see no reason to not shoot them all.

[Rangefinder]

Got this same thing from a friend of mine who owns a BP store and machine shop. I don't remember the specific smokeless powder this guy used, but from what I understand he measured it by volume in a BP flask. The measure, being set up the throw a metered charge of BP is obviously not going to throw the same charge in a different powder--especially a small grain smokeless. That has nothing to do with being inline or traditional BP---it has everything to do with general human stupidity, as do most firearm failures.

[frontier gander]

if the mountain men would have had the choice between round balls VS sabots or heavy conicals and 209 primers, they'd have used the inline as their lives dependable on the gun being reliable.

[PatMarlin]

if the mountain men would have had the choice between round balls VS sabots or heavy conicals and 209 primers, they'd have used the inline as their lives dependable on the gun being reliable.

Now that's an interesting perspective and argument on a tiresome subject.

[waksupi]

if the mountain men would have had the choice between round balls VS sabots or heavy conicals and 209 primers, they'd have used the inline as their lives dependable on the gun being reliable.

That is quite a stretch. Dependability WAS necessary, so the flintlock comes out on top. I have been at more than one shoot where no cap locks of any kind were on the line because of rain, while the flint shooters were all functioning fine.

[StarMetal]

That is quite a stretch. Dependability WAS necessary, so the flintlock comes out on top. I have been at more than one shoot where no cap locks of any kind were on the line because of rain, while the flint shooters were all functioning fine.

Ric,

Lots of new inline designs out there where the caps are totally inclosed and very water proof. I really can't see a tight fitting cap on a nipple being all that prone to rain any more so then a flinter. One of the very facts that they say that killed the flinter was rain. That and who wanted to readjust their flint in the heat of a battle after it had chipped and worn?

Again I say if the flintlock is the best why did firearms evolve?

Why can't you just agree to disagree?

[PatMarlin]

I really want to buy a nice flinter someday.

[waksupi]

Ric,

Lots of new inline designs out there where the caps are totally inclosed and very water proof. I really can't see a tight fitting cap on a nipple being all that prone to rain any more so then a flinter. One of the very facts that they say that killed the flinter was rain. That and who wanted to readjust their flint in the heat of a battle after it had chipped and worn?

Again I say if the flintlock is the best why did firearms evolve?

Why can't you just agree to disagree?

Speed of loading is what killed the ML, or at least made it weaker in the knees.
As for adjusting a flint in battle, I doubt it happened often. A well knapped flint is going to give you 30-40 shots at least, before needing any attention. I've been through two shoots the past few weeks, and that adds up to around 70-75 shots, and have not had to do anything to my flint, aside from wiping off fouling. Not many battles would have lasted that long.
I used to shoot cap locks quite a bit. In wet weather, the caps would draw moisture much worse than a flinter's priming charge.

I agree to disagree!

[StarMetal]

Speed of loading is what killed the ML, or at least made it weaker in the knees.
As for adjusting a flint in battle, I doubt it happened often. A well knapped flint is going to give you 30-40 shots at least, before needing any attention. I've been through two shoots the past few weeks, and that adds up to around 70-75 shots, and have not had to do anything to my flint, aside from wiping off fouling. Not many battles would have lasted that long.
I used to shoot cap locks quite a bit. In wet weather, the caps would draw moisture much worse than a flinter's priming charge.

I agree to disagree!

Yes the speed of reloading surely was one issue, but not the single one. As mentioned rain, having to carry two powders, wind, the list goes on.

As to the caps drawing moisture...I can see that....but in my personal experience I've never seen a 209 shot gun primer fail.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to get a flinter someday because as I told you in chat one night I think they are really cool!!!

[Swampman]

That is quite a stretch. Dependability WAS necessary, so the flintlock comes out on top. I have been at more than one shoot where no cap locks of any kind were on the line because of rain, while the flint shooters were all functioning fine.

Having shot flintlocks only for many many years I can say they aren't as reliable as caplocks or inlines. They were replaced very quickly when caplocks came on the scene.