Originally Posted by mooman76
Exactly, could`nt have said it better!!
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Exactly, could`nt have said it better!!
I was making inlines way before the big companies got into it. I was converting H&R shotguns and using the 209 primers. Had built about 2 dozen before Idaho changed their hunting laws to include that a muzzle loader had to use a percussion cap exposed to the air. I never thought someone would come up with a muzzle loader that was for smokeless except the little 22 beaver or badger or whatever the name was. It didn't really load from the muzzle but had a turret that received the ball and powder.
While it sound great to have a gun that doesn't need as much effort to clean, you miss out on all the other things about muzzle loading. The smoke and smell, if you don't have that then you would never be welcome at a rendezvous.
I do feel sorry for the guy, got to hurt bad. Sometimes lessons in life come hard.
"Would you go back and edit your post, "He was loading by volume, rather than weight"
So that it is in a BIG BOLD Font, for those that might read too fast.
Just asking
Bill"
For the record I did read the entire post before responding. Strangely I found no actual proof as to what has happened to this poor guy. Not calling anyone a liar, I have just seen this picture multiple times before (other places) with multiple explanations and no documentation as to what happened. You maybe didn't notice, I put the word GUESS in bold, in my original post?, or perhaps you were reading to fast also?
I loaded my Savage by volume with the LEE dipper 2.8cc and if I had the powder level with the top it came out to 38 grains of AA5744. If you read why Richard Lee made them that way in his book it will be apparent it is safe. Unfortunately a lot of people do not read the instructions and understand them.
What I hear from actual inline owners...
I only got it so I could hunt another season
It's got the range of a ...
It's got more power than...
I didn't know you had to clean these.
It LOOKS like a Ruger why can't I just try IMR 3031...
Are you SURE it won't shoot smokless, I sure don't want to clean it.
Every M/L season since they allowed them. I wish they would just quit messing around and go to a Primitive weapons season and let these folks go back to the single shot smokless rifles they really want anyway and make M/L season traditional RB flintlock only.
I don't consider any proper loaded inline or a Savage properly loaded with smokeless inherently dangerous for everyday proper use.
I would, however, offer the opinion that the availability of cheap inlines has lowered the mean I.Q. of those in the woods during muzzleloader season.
Once upon a time, if you got a muzzleloader, you had to figure it out for yourself. The manual that came with my CVA in '89 was pathetic. I doubt TC's were much better. You were feeling around in the dark. A lot of guys generally weren't happy about the performance they were getting from their muzzleloaders, there was no internet (as we know it today) piled up with all kinds of free advice (some good, some bad).
When I bought my Knight, it came with a manual telling me what would shoot, I shot it, it shot good, it went hunting.
I still love my old CVA, but a lot of guys quit fooling with any sidelock, either selling them cheap, or letting them rot.
Remember, most guys in the woods, intelligent or otherwise, are not as gun loony (to quote John Barseness) as we are. They just want to hunt.
dang this thread makes me regret getting an optima
P.S.- Forgot to post this earlier but i got an optima to get into deer hunting, not to get another season and here in the mitten shotgun zone we're allowed to buy muzzleloaders. I have had numerous highly educated shooters tell me that in-lines perform better than a shotgun and i still liked that it was partially traditional and the extra season didn't hurt
Last edited by Luper; 03-04-2010 at 07:35 PM.
I am sorry I do not see what is so graphic. Especially these days. But it should bring home the danger if one does make a mistake.
As for the before and after pics. If you look close his hand was full of metal of which had to be removed and his hand repaired with not only skin but bone that would have been displaced.
If one sits in thundering quiet the soul dies slow instead of yell to the heavens for all to hear and behold the righteous and upstanding and ones of which should be held with tales of woe. By C.A.S. <--- Thats Me lol.
Inline or not, if you exceed the max load, especially with smokeless, you're just asking for trouble. Centerfires blow up too. Sometimes from shooter error, sometimes from quality control that slipped up.
If you THINK that just because you shoot a sidelock or a flintlock, this can never happen to you... You better think again! One screw up with a muzzleloader can cost you a limb or even your life. http://gandersmuzzleloadingblog.blog...en-to-you.html
Why i like my inline.
Thats the sweet group ive shot with the rifle! .403" center to center.
Shoot safe!
Yeah . . . this is what I left the Dr. with:
And this is what he left me with:
Looks like this now:
It doesn't bother me to shoot my revolvers, but if I actually hit the tip . . . well . . . it is not good! Always has a "tight" feel to it, and is cold . . . He ended up severing it at the first knuckle . . .
John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Don't worry about what you bought, just learn how to SAFELY load and use it. That is the main problem seen with inlines, to many "Know It All" types that have to push the boundries. Given that many imported inlines are now under scrutiny of flat out forging proof tests...
Yes I would like to see inlines done away with just because to many idiots think you can use smokeless powders, and that opens a HUGE grey area and damage to reputations of all shooters. If some marketing fool had not tried to get this smokeless powder shortcut put out there we would not see nearly this ammount of damage.
Seen alot of this kind of publicity getting picked up by the gun grabbers and used against us. They like this kind of advertising, they get stronger for it...
Member of...
NMLRA
NRA
i had one. shot six deer with it. then sold it. i prefer the traditional rifles. my ml 2 was the most accurate gun in my house. it out shot all my center fires. i even shot duplex loads in it. stupid! velocity was over 2500 fps with a 250 gr bullet.
good bye to that pipe bomb.....
Oh please, let's not go back to the imported in-lines & proof testing again..... Give it up already because there have been more problems with imported sidelocks blowing up than in-lines and most came from India & Pakistan but Turkey, Italy, China and other countries are on the list too. You want to gripe about something, gripe about the money-grubbing dealers who are knowingly buying unsafe imported guns, jacking the price up 300-500% and selling them to unsuspecting customers who don't know any better! These are the dealers who don't care about anything but profit in their pocket! Want to talk about testing and quality, let's talk about all the Pedersoli's that come through with unsafe locks. Let's talk about the "made in India" and "made in Pakistan" guns with breechplugs that are soldered in and poorly done enough that they fail resulting in serious injuries with nothing more than "blank" charges!Don't worry about what you bought, just learn how to SAFELY load and use it. That is the main problem seen with inlines, to many "Know It All" types that have to push the boundries. Given that many imported inlines are now under scrutiny of flat out forging proof tests...
Let's be fair here and talk about all the idiots buying T/C, Lyman and other cheap mass-production sidelocks and loading them with powder that happens to be "black in color" like Bullseye. Idiots and know-it-alls are everywhere like those who tell people, "Just put a little smokeless in the barrel first and it'll reduce fouling so you don't have to wipe between shots." Let's talk about the idiots on the traditional side who have blown-up high-quality custom/semi-custom guns because they tried using "buck & ball" or "double-ball" loads without having a clue about how to properly load such things nor having any clue as to if the gun was designed for such loads. Same note, let's talk about all the idiots who have blown-up custom/semi-custom fowler because they don't know the proper way to load birdshot charges. How many idiots have blown-up custom/semi-custom guns because they chose to partake in the extremely unsafe activities of "running shoots" and "timed shoots"? Point is, none of these problems are created by the "gun" but rather by the stupidity and/or ignorance of the operator.Yes I would like to see inlines done away with just because to many idiots think you can use smokeless powders, and that opens a HUGE grey area and damage to reputations of all shooters. If some marketing fool had not tried to get this smokeless powder shortcut put out there we would not see nearly this ammount of damage.
I want to be perfectly clear about things - I build custom & semi-custom guns of all kinds: flint, percussion, underhammers, handgonnes & matchlocks. I don't give a dang about any other company but my own and I surely don't give a dang about modern in-lines except to say "thank you" to those companies building them because there is no better selling point than to hand a potential client a gun that feels and handles like a piece of sewer pipe strapped to a fence post then hand them one of mine that feels and handles like a gun should. I also don't take issue with anyone who chooses to use a modern in-line because it is what they want, that's the wonderful thing about freedom, just because I don't like it doesn't mean someone else should not be allowed to have what they like. I don't like sports, could care less about watching someone else play a game but many folks enjoy watch so more power to 'em!
Point is the reality of the situation. For those of you who think proof-testing is the answer to anything, bear the fact in mind that most all gun failures, ML or CF, are caused by the operator. You want to talk about proof-testing, let's look at the guns that passed the proof test yet failed at a later time through no fault of the operator - it happens and there is no level of testing that can prevent it ... that's why they're called "accidents" yet when something happens, doesn't matter who's fault it is, if anyone's, someone is looking to place the blame on someone else and thus is the problem with the world today.
The "blame game" is in a large part responsible for the cost of everything we buy today. A couple idiots think it's a good idea to pick up a running lawn mower and use it to trim hedges, they get their fingers chopped off, and rightly so, yet we all pay for the cost because the idiots sued the manufacturer and the retailer with the worst part being that they won! Idiots buy a vehicle they know nothing about, go out on the highway and shift from "D" to "R" flipping their own vehicle and taking out three other innocent people in the process. These idiots sue the mfg for their own stupidity and win because the jury was filled with idiots as well, then we all get to pay the price because mfg's now have to completely re-design transmissions to be "idiot-proof". Were did that get us? Fast forward to Toyota where the throttle stuck open, one lady shifts out of "D" to "R" yet nothing happens because the transmission idiot-proof re-design resulting from the previous law suit resulted in the mfg installing interlocks to prevent some idiot who shouldn't be driving in the first place from causing a wreck by intentionally shifting into "R" at 70mph. Now, the lady who tried to control engine run-away was the victim of idiot-proofing yet she's still suing the mfg despite the fact she didn't have enough brains to turn the ignition key off or apply the e-brake.
Let's talk about proof-testing for a minute too. Do you know how many times I see alleged gun builder claim they proof-test by loading a double+ charge with a double+ projectile ... quite often and anyone with even a hint of knowledge about the mechanical properties of metals knows full-well that while the barrel may have held to that insanely excessive overload, the alleged "testing" has created an over-stress condition and thus induced damage that can very well result in failure of that barrel at some later time. Let's say a barrel has been proof-tested in the proper manner as prescribed by the design and mechanical properties of the assembly and passes without any indication of a problem ... then, ten years later it turns loose with a normal and proper load because of a hidden flaw within the steel, is that now fault of the gun builder? Fault of the barrel maker? Fault of the proof-house? Fault of the steel manufacturer? Or, is it merely and unfortunate accident?
For those of you who think the above is someone's "fault", let me ask you this question ... sawmill cuts boards from a log, gun builder buys the board and makes a gunstock from it. No indication of any problems or flaws in the wood yet at some time later the wrist fractures on shooting and the shooter is injured. Are you going to blame the gun builder? The sawmill? The lumberjack? or God for creating a defective tree?
Yes, I absolutely agree that there are dangerous products out there, re-read my first paragraph. I also agree that there is dangerous advertising too and the focus on profit-driven sales-hype as opposed to common sense is an act of utter stupidity on behalf of the seller and shows complete disrespect for the entire shooting community ... HOWEVER ... if it was not for consumers responding to the sales BS, it wouldn't work so well! (Reference: Thomas Tusser, "A fool and his money are soon parted." and P.T. Barnum, "There's a sucker born every minute")
I have been involved in heavy industries and mass-production manufacturing most all of my life. For those of you who have not, let me give you a glimpse into cost of dealing with stupid consumers and money-grubbing lawyers. One of my former clients mass-produced office furniture. Their engineers completely re-designed a line of large file cabinets so as to reduce the severity of injury should some idiot slam their fingers in the drawer. They also increased cost by installing an anti-tip interlock so that some idiot could not open more than one drawer at a time without intentionally defeating the interlock system. Along comes blithering idiot #1 who intentionally defeats the interlock system and uses the file cabinet as a step ladder. Idiot #1 hires money-grub lawyer and sues the company because no one told him not to use a file cabinet as a step ladder. Idiot jury awards blithering idiot #1 a huge damage award, overturned in appeal thanks to judges who called the stupidity what it was but in the end it cost the consumers of that office equipment over $4 million in legal defense costs and just for the initial secondary warnings sent out to distributors, retailers and customers telling blithering idiots not to use a file cabinet as a step ladder. Subsequently, the cost to the consumers (other businesses using these large file cabinets) rose by roughly $350 per unit because the cabinet mfg was forced to design and mfg further idiot-proofing and print giant owners manuals and dozens of warning stickers in an attempt to protect themselves from blithering idiots. The cost increase followed suit when the businesses buying these file cabinets were forced to train their employees in the safe operation of the file cabinets for such things as telling them not to use a file cabinet as a step ladder. That cost was again passed on to the consumers of their products which is YOU and I. We all get stuck paying in the end so when you hear talk about "mandates" for something, understand that YOU are the one paying for it out of your pocket and 99.99% of that additional cost coming out of your pocket is directly attributed to blithering idiots!
AMEN FL-Flinter!
Well said!
When I stuck my finger in the printing press, it was my fault, I blame no one but myself, I thought I knew what I was doing, and I failed to confirm, and get confirmation of what I was looking out for . . . so I'm paying the price, now I make sure I KNOW why I am doing what I'm doing, and how do do it correctly, especially around things that can take my life . . . (Our press runs on 480VAC three phase powering a 50 hp motor . . . lots of moving parts and pinch points)
John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I say it is not what you use, it is how you use it. Anything misused can be dangerous, that is why we have the Darwin Awards and a million safety stickers on everything.
why do you regret buying an Optima? They are an excellent rifle. The new optimas are pretty bad **** too!
ANY firearm is dangerous if loaded improperly. Nothing wrong with inlines if you use your brain.
Boone and Crockett Club member
<<----------------<<<<<<
Pope & Young Club member
i love my optima its just reading it makes think i should have saved more money and a side-lock of some sort
luper your optima is as safe as any other rifle out there. Sidelock or not, if you screw up, anything can happen. They have videos on you tube of rifles blowing up while hunting due to mud being packed in the bore or something else. Even an ar15 blew up due to a misfire that barely fired off and the next live round kaboomed it.
give me my old tennessee mountain flint lock any day!
Giving money and power to Government, is like giving Whiskey and Car Keys to teenage boys!!!!
REMEMBER,,, Boys and Girls,,, An EMPTY gun is just an ugly club!!!!
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