Used my 7.6gr of 4227 with WSPM primers for a IDPA classifier yesterday. Couldn't go more than 12 rounds without unburnt powder getting caught under the ejector and causing the cylinder not to close and or rounds not to chamber all the way. It was a major headache and pain in the ***. However I loved how it shot and the accuracy was good. I'm thinking of only using this powder for 357 magnum loads now and not for competition other than pin shooting.
485--
I can't recall having used either of the 4227s in 38 Special in the past. I have used in Magnum revolvers to some extent, and haven't had issues with unburnt powder granules getting under the extractor star. Such a thing IS a monumental PITA under time-pressure of any kind, for certain.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Okay, well, if no one minds me breathing a little Life back in to this thread..!
The 200 Grain RNL was of course the "Super Police" round, back when.
I'd be curious to know when did it appear?
Was the 195 or 200 Grain Bullet used in any of the "38-44 Heavy Duty" Factory Loadings of the 1930s, 1940s?
I just Cast a bunch of them from my old LYMAN 358 430 Mold, and I am hoping to work up a friendly Load for use in a 1934 S & W "Heavy Duty" Revolver...I read through to here, but no one seems to have had the 1930s .38 Special S&W N Frame, or Colt New Service in mind.
Last edited by Oyeboten; 05-02-2021 at 03:41 AM.
I'll defer to 9.62x62Al he has had more experience than I with the bullet. Here are a few loads I worked up in my 4.2" GP=100.
High Low ES AVG SD
.38 Spl PB 3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 653 627 27 641 7
.38 Spl Unique 2.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 573 534 39 551 15
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 770 735 35 749 7
.38 Spl Unique 3.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 767 739 28 751 7
.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 571 552 19 559 6
.38 Spl Win 231 2.6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 591 537 54 565 16
.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Win Mag 861 820 41 839 12
.38 Spl***** IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.485 Win Mag 847 817 30 831 8
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 620 551 69 595 13
.38 Spl IMR 4227 7.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 722 667 55 694 16
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.2 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 845 782 63 812 17
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Tula 838 801 37 822 11
.38 Spl IMR 4227 9.7 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.500 Fed 845 801 44 815 16
.357 Mag Unique 5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 912 841 71 888 19
.357 Mag Unique 5.3 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 945 911 34 927 8
.357 Mag Unique 5.5 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 962 937 26 952 7
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1086 1049 37 1067 10
.357 Mag Unique 6 201 Lyman 358430 358 1.615 Win Mag 1057 1012 45 1031 8
Loads represent 10 rounds over F1 Chrony at 5 yards
ES - Extreme Spread
SD - Standard Deviation
Take Care
Bob
ps Formatting from my spreadsheet leaves a lot to be desired. If you have any questions PM your email address and I can send you the spreadsheet.
Last edited by robertbank; 05-02-2021 at 12:05 PM.
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
Nice work!Originally Posted by robertbank
Thank you Bob..!
I'll meditate a while on all this, being as I have a 6 inch Colt 'Army Special', and also my 5 inch S & W N-Frame "Heavy Duty", so, these two would be the ones, for possibly each their own loading of this Bullet.
I do not intend to go faster than "in the low 8s", so...should be no strain or worries for those two.
And too, the 195 or 200 Grain RNL would likely be an agreeable Black Powder Round as well, so, I'll load up some of those also, and see what they do in .38 Special "BP'.
You might want to think on that. The bullet does take up quite a bit of space in the case. You may not be able to get much BP in the case to do much more than push the bullet out the barrel. I have no experience in this area and have only just begun to shoot a New Army Remington in 44 caliber. Just thinking about how little room you are going to have for BP after the bullet is seated.
Take Care
Bob
Last edited by robertbank; 05-02-2021 at 11:49 PM.
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
Good observation!
I'll see..!
I think with Balloon Head Cases, and good compression, and holding the Boolit out about 3/32nds farther than normal, I can maybe get in about 20 Grains of 3 F Swiss.
I'll find out for sure soon...just realized though, I need to get some Loading dies!
Last .38 Special I loaded up was about four years ago, and all I had then was my Lyman Tru-Line Junior and it's 310 style Dies, and I set all that aside ( and out of reach now ) to favor a Lyman All American Press which takes the usual "fat" Dies...so, off to ebay with me now, to get some fat .38 Special Loading Dies.
I found that with good compression, using the fairly light duty Tru-Line Junior Press, I would get the original 21-1/2 Grains of 3F, under a usual 158 RNL Bullet, in modern thick Head .38 Special Brass, just fine...but I prefer the older roomier Balloon Head Brass with BP, and then not quite so much compression needed for Standard Loadings.
The 200 gr Lyman bullet is a long sucker. I will be interested to see how you make out. I would be marking those balloon head cases for certain. I just eye balled a bullet/case when loaded to the crimp grove and you got a 5/8th + inch to work with so you might get 20 grains in. Good luck.
Take Care
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
I'll report back later this evening with pictures..!
Got some .38 Special Dies this morning at my LGS...yeahhh!
I have a Bill Davis 681 and a Lymam 200 grain mold and out of the LEE Hardback book with a starting load of 2400 using 200 grain data for 38 special it is very accurate. This boolit is too long for a model 27 but you can seat it deeper. I use it in my 19-3 also on the low side.<My wife has had 7 kids since this thread started>
I'm a longtime fan of the heavy-for-caliber 200gr boolit in the 38 Special. So, 15 or so years ago I did a bit of testing of that boolit in my then-new 357 Ruger 101 with a 2.25" barrel that I had just bought for conceal carry.
The load I settled on is 2.82gr of Red Dot, because I wanted a fast-burning powder to achieve maximum efficiency without leaving unburned powder in the shorty barrel. My Chrony shows 567fps with this load in 38 Special cases. That has given me good accuracy, mild recoil and effective target disruption.
I use a Lyman 358430 mold when casting my own, but also use 200 grainers of the same design from commercial casters as well. I crimp at the first groove, which results in a longer-than-standard 1.85" OAL. This extra length has proven to be much easier to use with a speed-loader for me, since the bullets seem to just fall into the cylinder ports in an almost self-guided fashion. Also, those big lead boolits protrude to the end of the cylinders and fill the holes up quite adequately, to the point that they are easily seen from the business end, like guided ICBMs in their silos. I don't know about anybody else, but there's something intimidating to see all those boolits pointed right at me when I point the loaded gun at the image in the mirror.
Some smaller 38 Special revolvers might not take a loaded cartridge that long. My 357 Ruger 101 does. Goodie.
Tested in wet, bound newspaper, the bullet penetrates about 5 inches, and at the end of its travel it is sideways. The last two or three inches show a lot of newspaper tissue disruption from this tumble effect. For a self-defense load, this unstable boolit behavior should limit excess penetration in typical self-defense situations, yet offer the type of effect that will stop a threat.
My goal with this big boolit in the 38 Special was to emulate the British 38/200 in a short revolver that is easily concealable. I'm satisfied that I've achieved that in my little hammerless, double-action 2.25" 101.
At least, it works for me that way.
Last edited by MikeP; 05-04-2021 at 05:02 PM.
You devil you! Way to much information but congrats.I have a Bill Davis 681 and a Lymam 200 grain mold and out of the LEE Hardback book with a starting load of 2400 using 200 grain data for 38 special it is very accurate. This boolit is too long for a model 27 but you can seat it deeper. I use it in my 19-3 also on the low side.<My wife has had 7 kids since this thread started>
Take Care
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
MikeP have someone powder coat a few of those bullets red. That would scare the bejesus out of anyone close enough to want to know what was in the gun. I alternated red and green bullets in my GP-100 and it was awesome to look at.
Take Care
Bob
Its been months since I bought the book, "How to scam people online". It still has not arrived yet!
"If the human population held hands around the equator, a significant portion of them would drown"
OLD but good. Those long bullets like the MICRO-grove rifleing of Marlin carbines and 2400 powder.
You hit the nail on the head. I see I responded to this back in 2014 when I just fired it in my revolvers. Since then, I bought a micro groove Marlin 1894 357. Which just love the 38 case and 9.5 grains 2400. Since now my 2400 is getting a little short these days, I switched to unique and a 357 case. I also discovered that I can’t size this bullet to .358, I have to leave it a bit fat unsized and water quenched for my micro groove Marlin. I like shooting metal plates at my range and the 195 grain bullet makes a “clang” sound over a “ting” sound of a 158 grain.
Last edited by smkummer; 03-09-2022 at 07:34 AM.
Some recent chronograph data for 158 LRN and 200-grain .38 Special factory loads and hand loads with the NOE 363-204RN clone of the British 380-200 Mk1 service bullet, fired from 1964 Colt Official Police former NYPD issue, authenticated by Colt factory letter, maintained by factory-trained armorer during annual requals, with 4-inch barrel and 0.005" barrel-cylinder gap. Ammunition tested came from the estate of a retired NYPD detective and Vietnam vet. Mentor and teacher.
Rem-UMC 158 LRN Police Service WW2 era. 764 fps, 32 ES, 9 SD
Rem-UMC 158 FMJ Steel Jacket, WW2 era 798 fps, 84 ES, 22 SD
Rem-UMC 200 LRN Police Service, WW2 era 684 fps, 21 ES, 8 SD
Western 200 Super Police Lubaloy, WW2 era 676 fps, 22ES, 6 SD
WRA 158 LRN WW2 era, 792 fps, 42 ES, 15 SD
WCC60 XM174 158 FMJ, 779 fps, 58 ES, 19 Sd
NOE 363-204RN, COWW sized .358, Rem-UMC case, Rem 1-1/2, 3.3 grs 452AA, OAL 1.55" 665 fps, 47 ES, 21 SD
NOE 363-204RN as above, 3.1 grs. Bullseye , 676 fps, 35 ES, 11Sd
NOE 363-204RN, Rem-UMC case, Rem 1-1/2, 3.3 grs. Bullseye 706 fps, 51 ES, 19 SD
Above should not be exceeded except cautiously in revolvers rated for .38 Special +P or .357 ammunition. Your mileage may vary.
Last edited by Outpost75; 03-08-2022 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Cautionary note added
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
I'm interested in those Unique loads for the .38Spl case. I have a bunch of #358430 to try in a Colt OP 6" made in the late 1950's.
I HATE auto-correct
Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.
My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.
SASS #375 Life
You have an excellent gun for 358430-195 grain. That’s what I originally loaded the 9.5 grains 2400 for. I have both a army special 6” and colt official police MKIII with a 6” barrel. Plus several officers models.
Somewhere I read that the 200 grain 38 special was introduced when the 41 colt (200 grain) was dropped. So replication the 700-730 fps would approximate the performance of the old 41 long colt of which I load as well.
I got my Accurate bullet mold in the other day and poured and powdered coated a long SWC for my .38. ok, actually my .38 is a model 28 smith. the bullet, with powder coat weights 220gr.'s. 2.5 gr's of HP-38 is a very light load. 3.6 gr's of unique is a fairly mild load, 5 gr's of HS-6 I fairly mild. the only reason I tried HS-6 is because I 've got about 6 lb.s of it and it's too dirty to shoot in any thing else. But 5 gr's is a pretty good load and pretty clean shooting. I'll be trying 5.3 gr's , and 4.7 gr's also just to check for how dirtyi they can be. I believe the bullet is about 7/8 inch long.
Nothing wrong with the 195 gr. Lyman, but I was thinking it'd be nice to find a mold that would cast a projectile similar in shape to what was used in the old Enfield .38-200 rounds, that was tail-heavy and tended to yaw on impact. No doubt out of place on an IDPA range, but with the extra "oomph" afforded by a .38 Special, it could add a new index of fight-stopping capability to snubbies and K-frames.
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Ecclesiastes 1:18
He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool become servant to the wise of heart. Proverbs 11:29
...Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Matthew 25:40
Carpe SCOTCH!
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