200gr .38 SPL data?

[336A]

I didn't want to hijack LouisianaMan's thread so I thought I would start my own thread. It appears that there is quite a bit of interest in this bullet weight for the .38 SPL of late. I've given it a thought a time or two and am now back to thinking about loading this bullet weight for my .38 SPL M10-14.

I've seen some of the older load data floating around for the Lyman #358430. However I really wonder if it is safe espsecially the MAX load for 2400 which is 9.5gr. Can anyone here elaborate on that particular load? If not is there a source of current data for this bullet weight around some where? I'm also wondering if any one can tell my how much higher POI will be from POA from a fixed sight M10 that shoots 158gr ammo to POA. Lastly I don't cast my own bullets where can i find .358 200gr bullets to purchase?

[Landric]

I've shot some of the 200 grain 358430/ 9.5 grains of 2400 combo. It actually feels pretty mild and doesn't show any pressure signs (though that is fairly meaningless at .38 Special pressures). Average velocity was just under 900 fps in a 4" gun and right at 800 fps in a 2" gun. I got basically the same performance with 6.9 grains of HS-6.

For a milder load, 4.3 grains of Trail Boss averaged about 675 fps for me from a 4" gun.

Point of impact is slightly higher than 158 grain bullets, but its not a huge difference in my experience.

[dubber123]

My 2005 Alliant suppliment lists 7.1 grains of 2400 as a +P loading with 200 grain boolits. Pressure listed as 17,500 Psi.

[Bucks Owin]

A 200 gr at 900 fps in the .38 Spl is pushing it IMO...

[danski26]

I found this data on the web. PLEASE VARIFY IT WITH THE LYMAN 43 MANUAL BEFORE USING. I have not used these loads or seen the Lyman manual they supposidly came from. At least it gives you a starting point. My Lyman #47 manual does not list a 200gr load.

Lyman 43
.38 Special, 200 gr. cast flat point bullet

Bullseye Max 2.7 gr., 720 fps.
SP230 (no longer available) - Max. 2.5 gr., 700 fps.
No. 6 (no longer availabe) - Max 2.8 gr., 705 fps.
5066 (may be available) - Max 3.0, 710 fps.
Unique - Max 4.0, 681 fps.

[danski26]

This data is supposed to be out of Lyman #45 for a 195 gr boolit. Again please check this data with the lyman #45. I have not used these loads or have i seen the manual.

Bullseye 2.0 - 530 - 2.7 Max - 658
Unique 3.0 - 572 - 4.1 Max - 772
2400 8.0 - 734 - 9.5 Max - 893
SR7625 3.0 - 478 - 3.8 Max - 675
SR4756 - 4.0 - 506 - 5.4 Max - 810
IMR4227 - 7.0 - 494 - 9.5 Max - 748

[9.3X62AL]

The Alliant data also lists 7.0 grains of 2400 as its top-end standard-pressure loading, giving 15,800 PSI. If the addition of 0.1 grain of powder adds only 20 FPS of velocity (870 vs. 890 FPS) but boosts pressures from 15.8K to 17.5K, I'm thinking that sort of kinkiness isn't to my tastes. At all. Such things were called "clues" at my old job site.

The Lyman #358430 has been splendidly accurate for me. Much of its usage has been in the 357 Magnum, less in the 38 Special--it did well in both calibers, spread among at least a dozen revolvers through the years. Keep in mind that standard-pressure 38 Special factory loads seldom exceeded 700 FPS with 200 grain boolits in real-world ballistics......f you can safely get to 800-825 FPS, you've gained a 20% momentum advantage over the "158 grain standard"--perhaps a bit more.

[LouisianaMan]

336A,

Lee 2nd lists 14 diffferent powders for .38 SPL with 200g lead bullet, plus another 3 for 195g lead bullet. Some more loads available in .38 SPL +P.

Let me know which powders you're thinking about, & I'll be glad to send you the Lee data. Interestingly, he doesn't list Win 231, which apparently was a long-time standard for this bullet weight @ 3.8g.

Listed:
ACCUR 7, 5, 2 (195g bullet)

200g below:
IMR 4227
BLUE DOT
H4227
HS6
HERCO
UNIQUE
IMR PB
BULLSEYE
SR7625
GREEN DOT
SR4756
IMR 700X
RED DOT
IMR 800X

[336A]

Thanks to all for the help. 9.3x62AL I fell the same way as you do, something ain't right there. LouisianaMan thanks for the awesome offer. I'm looking at data for Unique and 2400, thanks for the genorosity.

[LouisianaMan]

336A,

From Lee 2nd Ed, p.568

.38 Special, 200g lead bullet
Unique:

Start 3.4g 745fps Max 3.6g 780fps 15700 PSI COL 1.540
************************************************** *******

.38 Special +P, 200g lead bullet p. 573

HERC 2400

Start 6.6g 834fps Max 7.1g 890fps 17500 PSI COL 1.540

I haven't used 2400, so I personally don't even know if 2400 and HERC 2400 are the same powder. No doubt you know already, or can easily verify it. HTH.

[9.3X62AL]

"2400" was formerly made by Hercules Powder Company, and is now made by Alliant. There has been commentary that 2400 "changed" between makers, but in the many loadings I've used I haven't noticed a significant change. Of course, I'm not running most of those loads at "red line", either.

Regardless which 2400 you use, I would do the standard work-up.......10% less powder than listed max (7.1 - .71 = 6.4 grains), start there, and work up 0.2 grains at a time, to maximum.

[Beerd]

here is some older IMR data:

[robertbank]

I know I am waking up an old thread but information is timeless. I just acquired a 200 Gr Lyman mould and am working towards two objectives. I am looking for a very light load of around 550 fps for IDPA out of a 4.2" GP - 100 for SSR Division and a heavy load of 850 fps for ESR Division in IDPA using 38spl cases. I may have to go with .357Mag cases for the heavy load but would prefer to use 38spl cases as they are shorter and reloads are or can be marginally faster,

Right now I have PB, Titegroup, Clays, Universal Clays, 2400, 4227, Unique and 231 at ny disposal.

The objective here is to reduce felt recoil in the hopes of gaining some time on splits, Fools errand perhaps but I have the time.

Thoughts and loads if you have them.

Take Care

Bob

[DrCaveman]

Yo buddy. Nice score on that mold!

I shot 7 gr of imr 4227 behind that one, got average of 526 fps. 38 spl case, standard primer. Ill bet around 7.5-7.8 would get what you are looking for. I didnt record which gun i shot it from but i think it was a 4" 357 mag.

Good shootin to ya.

[robertbank]

Yo buddy. Nice score on that mold!

I shot 7 gr of imr 4227 behind that one, got average of 526 fps. 38 spl case, standard primer. Ill bet around 7.5-7.8 would get what you are looking for. I didnt record which gun i shot it from but i think it was a 4" 357 mag.

Good shootin to ya.

Gotta a heck of a deal from a guy down in Oregon. Got rid of a mold I hardly ever use foe one that has already cast 500 boolits with more coming. Gotta like it when a deal comes along like that.

Thanks for the load I will get some loaded and over a Chrony today. I figured a slow powder might do it. I should have got hold of you in the first place. If it works as it should then I will chase up a heavier load to make 170 PF (850 fps) and should be good to go for both divisions. 158's aren't bad at 105PF but get hurtful when you go to 170PF with .357mag on my old wrists.

Take Care

Bob

[Old Caster]

I know I am waking up an old thread but information is timeless. I just acquired a 200 Gr Lyman mould and am working towards two objectives. I am looking for a very light load of around 550 fps for IDPA out of a 4.2" GP - 100 for SSR Division and a heavy load of 850 fps for ESR Division in IDPA using 38spl cases. I may have to go with .357Mag cases for the heavy load but would prefer to use 38spl cases as they are shorter and reloads are or can be marginally faster,

Right now I have PB, Titegroup, Clays, Universal Clays, 2400, 4227, Unique and 231 at ny disposal.

The objective here is to reduce felt recoil in the hopes of gaining some time on splits, Fools errand perhaps but I have the time.

Thoughts and loads if you have them.

Take Care

Bob

Bob, For IDPA the 200 grain bullet works great. I used a 200 grain RCBS bullet that was for a 35 Remington rifle and they weighed around 217 out of the mold without the gas check. I used 231 but no longer remember how much. I remember them being around 550 as you mention and recoil was remarkably low. Everyone griped that I was gaming until we shot them over the chronograph and I was way higher in Power Factor than any of them were. I was using a Model 10 with a 4 inch barrel and had a hard time getting a 158 grain bullet to even make PF but with the 200, it is so easy that you might have to pass it up a bit just to make it reasonable.

[robertbank]

2.5 gr of 231 just makes PF. May bump to 2.6gr to have some comfort level. Recoil is very light. I use the same gin in ESR with 357Mag cases but will develop a load using the 200 gr boolit and 38spl cases using 4227. Looks like 9.4 gr should do it for 170PF with 7.3 gr making PF for IPSC minor.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Here is the result of my testing over the last couple of days. All loads shot over a F1 Chrony using a Ruger GP-100 with a 4.2" barrel using S&B Brass. Temperature was aroud 20C The object was to test different powders given none are available right now so at some point it will be down to third best choice. All loads were an attempt to meet one of the power factor minimums for either IDPA or IPSC revolver classes. The hope with this bullet was to reduce felt recoil by as much as possible by using a larger bullet and small powder charges. Recoil for the lighter loads was quite soft and less than that from 158 gr boolits at approx. the same PF.

I was pleasantly surprised at the results for Win231/HP38 and Unique. Both powders fulfill the needs for several calibers I shoot regularly. When powder is available I use them a lot. The powder is quite dirty compared to Clays for the 158 gr and dirtier than Universal with the 200 gr boolit. It does work well in my 125 gr 9MM boolit and I use a lot of it in that cartridge.

PB is a powder bought as a last resort due to the powder shortage. I find it dirty at the PF we shoot it at but beggers can't be choosers and the darn powder works well with this bullet as well as the 158.

I have not tried Clays, a powder of choice with the 158 gr bullets. I think the powder would be to fast for the 200 gr boolit in a 38spl case but I could be wrong. Has anyone here had any experience using Clays with a heavier boolit.

Universal burns very clean and I intend to play with that powder a bit more. May try 2.8 gr to see if I can move up in PF just a bit.

4227 leaves something to be desired even when loaded hot. I noted a lot of unburned powder. I may try applying more crimp to see if that helps. I may increase the heaviest load by a couple of tenths of a gr to give me a little more room for the IPSC Chronograph.



POW GR OAL PRIMER HIGH LOW EX SP AVG SD PF H PF A PF L

.38 Spl	IMR 4227	7.5	201	1.500	Tula	722	667	55	694	16	2.31%	145	139	134
.38 Spl	IMR 4227	9.2	201	1.500	Tula	845	782	63	812	17	2.09%	170	163	157
.38 Spl	IMR 4227	7.2	201	1.500	Tula	620	551	69	595	13	2.18%	125	120	111
.38 Spl	IMR 4227	9.5	201	1.500	Tula	838	801	37	822	11	1.34%	168	165	161
.38 Spl	PB	3	201	1.500	Tula	653	627	27	641	7	1.09%	131	129	126
.38 Spl	Titegroup	3	201	1.500	Tula	715	690	26	703	5	0.71%	144	141	139
.38 Spl	Unique	2.7	201	1.500	Tula	573	534	39	551	15	2.72%	115	111	107
.38 Spl	Universal	2.5	201	1.500	Tula	536	434	103	490	12	2.45%	108	98	87
.38 Spl	Universal	3	201	1.500	Tula	630	600	30	615	9	1.46%	127	124	121
.38 Spl	Universal	2.7	201	1.500	Tula	531	508	22	520	10	1.92%	107	105	102
.38 Spl	Win 231	2.5	201	1.500	Tula	573	514	59	541	12	2.22%	115	109	103
.38 Spl	Win 231	2.6	201	1.500	Tula	571	552	19	559	6	1.07%	115	112	111

The 9.2 amd 9.5 4227 loads listed above were shot in a Ruger GP-100 and are not recommended in lighter built K38 'smiths or similar .38spl revolvers. The 4227 loads in 357 Cases would be well under SAMMI maximums for the boolit.

Take Care

Bob

[Old Caster]

I think you can have clean or less perceived recoil. Two bullets of the same weight at the same velocity loaded with fast and slow powder have the exact same recoil but how they feel can be very different.

[robertbank]

I think you can have clean or less perceived recoil. Two bullets of the same weight at the same velocity loaded with fast and slow powder have the exact same recoil but how they feel can be very different.

Yup. The 165 PF load feels like more of a push as opposed to the 158gr boolit load I use in .357 cases to make the same PF. The light loads feel real light using the 200 gr boolit. Again more of a push than a snap.

Take Care

Bob