Heavy 45 acp boolit?

[lar45]

I read an article about heavy weight bullets in the 45 acp(300 gn ish). There was a little talk in the group buys section on the 45-270-SAA thread.
I'm wondering if we could turn out a mold that looked similar to the bullets used in that article. Would there be any infringement on their idea?
Maybe add a rebated boattail onto the back of the 230 BDacp design? Maybe we could section some cases to see where the brass starts to get thick and by how much, then put the rebated boat tail in that spot. How much rear sholder area do you think would be needed? Would it need a pronounced step of around .05" +-, then start the boat tail to keep the edge square when it leave the muzzle? Or could we just start at the max OD and then taper in to the base?

[fivegunner]

I tryed this back in the early 80s, had Wayne Gibbs build me two 4 cavity molds of John Adams design #265 they are a round nose with a wadcutter shoulder at about 265gr. I never realy gave it a fair test as I went back to shooting the H&G #68 for ISPC and put the Idea of the big bullets on hold. my way of thinking is that its to heavy for 1911s it will beat them to death! maybe I`ll try casting up some and give it a try this summer.

[harley45]

I'd be interested in getting on board this one I think we need to start with a full diameter bullet then taper it, I just have no Idea how to go about designing it.

[AnthonyB]

Fellas; I've been working with heavy boolits in the 45 ACP for the last couple years and haven't yet finished my research, but here are some preliminary results:
1. A "loose" 1911 will feed almost anything, to include the heavy SWCs intended for the 45 Colt.
2. A "tight" 1911 built for target accuracy may not feed the heavies well or at all, and tight chambers make themselves known in a hurry.
3. Glocks will allow a slightly longer OAL than 1911s, but mine don't feed the heavies as well. I've no way to measure pressure, but seating the boolits out means lower velocities and should make pressure spikes more uniform.
4. A 230 grain bullet at 930fps has the same momentum as a 300 grain at 720fps. I've no way to test slide battering but know a 1911 will run that 230 grain load a long time with no problems and without requiring extra-power springs.
5. There does not appear to be any great accuracy advantage to either standard weight or heavy boolits. My subjective assessment is that the heavies do better at very long ranges but I can't prove it.
I haven't done the penetration tests yet; those are next on the agenda. I suspect I'll eventually decide that when I want a 45 ACP loaded with a boolit heavier than 230 grains I should grab the 44 Magnum instead. Tony

[lar45]

I've been wanting to get a pressure trace setup for awhile now. So I imagine that It might happen this summer with the lube business bringing in extra money. I picked up one of those 45 acp Mauser conversions, but have not shot it yet. I loaded up a whole pile of BD 230's in all kinds of powder weights and choices... But when I got to the range, the rounds would not chamber in the auto so I didn't shoot any of them. I was going to record the difference in the 7" long slide and the 16" mauser.
When I loaded them, I check to see that they would chamber and feed from the magazine. Everything was fine. When I got to the range it seems the bullets had swollen or something??? The bullets were at the case diameter ahead of the mouth and would not chamber all the way.
I don't know what I did wrong. I didn't think the bullets would spring back to a larger OD after being sized. Maybe I didn't have the cases belled enough and they pushed up a ridge or something? There wasn't any lead shaved down the side of the case.

So anyway with the pressure trace I could take readings for changing seating deapths and running several different powders up and down. With the Mauser action we could run the pressures up to 40 or 50k. Just so we would know what the extra .5 gn would do. The velocities would be from the 16" bbl. I wonder if it would be illegal to put a 5" bbl on a Mauser action, then bolt the action to a sled just for pressure testing? Maybe I should write the ATF a letter?

[harley45]

I think a 5in bar. would be o.k. if you apply for a short bar. rifle stamp I'd write the atf and see what they say, this is going to be very interesting if it comes together.
Eric

[JudgeBAC]

Dont mean to hijack this thread, but Lar45 mentioned his lube. I just lubed some bullets with some of his allox. It flows through my Lyman 450 without any heat and is not sticky like the Javelina I had been using. This looks like a great lube. Thanks Lar45.

[Bucks Owin]

I don't know what I did wrong. I didn't think the bullets would spring back to a larger OD after being sized.

I could be wrong, but I think they do "spring back" about a half a thou or so...

I know bullets sized in my (supposed) .357" sizer actually mike out closer to .3575" to almost .358". I guess it depends on how much you squeeze them down as to how much they "grow" back....

FWIW,

Dennis

[AnthonyB]

Lar45, a buddy's Springfield has a very tight chamber and requires RN boolits to be sized at .451 before they will feed. You didn't mention what sizer die you used, but I'd try a .451. The BD45ACP and BD45CM have both fed very well for me. I had some leading in my Kimber a few years ago, and BD suggested sizing to .451 - leading gone. The Colt's and Glock get .452, and the ammo will still function in the Kimber, but I try to keep it sorted. Tony

[mattc]

have you tried using the computer program "quick load" for figuring your pressures, it has an option that you can tell it what seating depths to use, I dont have anyway to check their pressuers for accuricy but they are right on with their volicities when compaired to seat depth (tested against a crony)

[ANeat]

One thing you need to watch out for with the heavier 45acp loadings in the throat after the chamber. The chamber may be fine but if the rifling starts to soon or the bullet dia is to large coming out of the case the round will not chamber. You will see this a lot if a SWC is loaded a little to long or if the barrel isnt throated enough to allow the round to chamber. Most of the succesfull 45acp bullets for semiautos taper down pretty quick for the part that is sticking out of the case.

I have the reamers/gauges necessary to chamber and throat 45acp if anything is needed. It seems like if you had a design with the full bullet diameter a little further out of the case that would be a good way to pick up a little extra weight. With some 1911's you can get into a situation where the bullet's in the magazine will engage the slide stop.

Adam

[lar45]

have you tried using the computer program "quick load" for figuring your pressures, it has an option that you can tell it what seating depths to use, I dont have anyway to check their pressuers for accuricy but they are right on with their volicities when compaired to seat depth (tested against a crony)

Yes I have Quick Load and really do like it. We do need to remember that it is only a tool to give predictions of what might happen.
I never could get it to give the readings of my 230 @ 1300 oops load. I was just kind of curious what the pressure was in that load. My first time loading 45acp, took a buddies load of 4.7gns 700x and a 230 LRN. I used Military TZZ brass instead and got 1300fps from my 7" longslide hardballer. I also had a LLama Comander size that gave almost 1300 and took a real bad beating. I pulled the bullets, reduced and worked up to 4.2gns 700X for 900fps ish.
Quickload doesn't have 700X listed, but Red Dot seems to give very similar performance in loaded ammo. The brass was perfect after fireing in an unsupported chamber BTW. I think this would be a very economical alternative to 45 Super brass. Now I've been hearing about the 45-08 used in Canada for Bear protection. I guess they are loading a 200 SWC at 1300fps and useing a 22 lb? recoil spring with no other mods.? I hear that it has succesfully taken down Black and Grizzly bear. They take 308 or similar rifle cases, cut off, then inside ream part way back so they have a very thick web. Looks like it would make a nice seating sholder so the bullets couldn't get get hammered any deeper while shooting.

I think the max nose radius and meplat was fairly well covered with the 230 BD ACP.
I think the idea of a longer throat might be a good individual thing, but no if the bullet was intended to be shot from a standard 45 ACP chamber.
If we have a rebated boat tail, or just boat tail, then it might work well for a long range bullet for the 45 Colt/454...
I'm wondering about the boat tail part. If we need a good square base to keep the muzzle gases from disturbing the bullet, then will it make any difference if we have a rebated boat tail or just a regular boat tail?
I guess that rifle bullets mostly have a regular boat tail and all do fine. So if the molds are cut properly, then it should be the same for this one?? Thoughts?
A regular boat tail would make seating easier.

If this does go any further, then I would appreciate the loan of the 45 reamers.

The expanding 230 BD bullets were run through my .451 sizer die. I don't remember what they came out at now. Maybe I'll buy a .450 die and hone it out until it's right.

It seems like I remember about a site that has a ballistic coeficiant(sp) calculator on it for cast bullets. Anybody know where that is?

[ANeat]

If you need the reamers and gauges Ill be glad to loan them. Also at the moment I have a Marlin Camp 45 Carbine if you are curious about the longer barrel velocities. It does have the Micro groove barrel so Im not sure how cast friendly it is.

One thing on the boat tail design and accuracy, I had always believed that the flat base design was it for an accurate handgun bullet. Ive shot Star swaged lead bullets and an H&G 68 thru my bullseye gun and both have a very pronounced bevel base to them, also they are both extremely accurate thru my 1911's Less that 2" @ 50 yards so I think accuracy with a boat tail bullet could be possible.

Adam

[StarMetal]

I know Tony said if you have match barrels and tight guns a 1911 more then likely won't feed the heavy bullets. Well I have a 70 Series Gold Cup and an 80 Series Combat Commander Gold Cup (only 1000 made in stainless). The 70 Series has a Clark match barrel in it, the 80 Series has a the Colt Match barrel welded up by Jimmy Clark, fitted by me. Both guns built by me. They feed ANYTHING reliably including empt cases.

I also have a semi-auto Thompson submachinegun and a HK UPC 45 carbine, both have 16 inch barrels and I can tell you that you don't gain alot of velocity with the 45acp over a handgun even with stiff loads. Basically not worth it to push them.

Joe

[Catshooter]

I have a copy of an old article by Gene Crum where he wanted and developed a cast 305 gr .45-70 boolit in the .45 auto. It was a hollow based boolit and he felt that when seating it the web of the case would boat-tail the base a bit.

Interesting artcle and concept. He ended up with pure lead at 600 fps.

[Edward429451]

I read an article way back where they were loading 260 gr JHP's and shooting them through a combat commander. The slide stop hole cracked from the battering. I loaded up a couple mags and shot them through my 5" but shortly thereafter got a 44 mag for the woods and never toyed with it again.

Interesting idea though.

[StarMetal]

I'll bet that was a Commander with the aluminum frame.

Joe

[Edward429451]

It might've been a lightweight. It's been so long I can't remember.

[NucEm]

I read in here about feeding problems in tight 1911 guns
A tight 1911 whatever the cartridge it shoots, if clean and tight will shoot and feed anything, thats what mine does
Most 45 guns over here in sweden are shooting 180 to 230 grains bullets, only used for target and competition. I got me 270 grains Rn cast bullets long ago and tested them, accuracy wise no problems but the slow recoil of them gave me a sort of double recoil, i could see and feel the slide recoil a lot slower so for papper target shooting i stay with 180 to 220 grains bullets
Hunting with such a gun in Sweden gets you a ticket to the jail at once

[AnthonyB]

Fellas, ya'll have taken my comments out of context. Surely there are exceptions to every rule, but tight fitting makes it more difficult to feed any boolit, no matter the weight. The heavy SWCs make this problem worse, not better, as the nose slams into the feed ramp and must "bounce" into the chamber. The real problem is tight chambers - I have tested two Springfield Armory Trophy Match guns that wouldn't feed a RN 452374 when sized .452. Sizing to .451 helped them run better, but they still didn't last very long as the dirt accumulated. I advised the owner to have the ream the chambers with a standard reamer or stick to jacketed bullets.

Joe, your custom fitted gun is an exception. My comments were based on tests with standard factory offerings from Colt, Kimber, Springfield Armory, and Glock. Still, I'd be willing to bet that you'd get stoppages as the round count accumulated that a looser pistol would not.

NucEm, I agree that "clean and tight" 1911 will work very well, even the heavy SWCs. I clean my guns more than most, but they are still no longer clean after the first magazine has been fired. I typically fire 300-500 rounds per range session, so the pistol of the day is far from clean when we are finished. The target grade Kimber will begin to choke occasionally as the fouling accumulates, but the "looser" Colt's will continue to function normally. This is not a condemnation of the Kimber at all, just a matter of tolerances.

You won't find a bigger fan of the 1911 on the board, but these are the things I have learned over the last two years of testing. The results don't lessen my respect for the platform at all, but they are "facts" to my mind. Tony