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Thread: .38 S&W penetration test, 200g bullets

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Guys,
    I've never used 2400 before. How does that load look & feel coming out of a 4" barrel, Landric? I've got a Mod 67 and a Mod 15 that would be fun to play with at that power level. And does 2400 meter well, to help with quantity production?

    9.3x62AL,
    I couldn't agree more. Cheer up or die, to all of us! This isn't Bragg, Forrest, and the high command of the Army of Tennessee, after all. I particularly enjoyed your several posts here. A gentleman, scholar & ballistician rolled into one! IIRC, 9.3x62 appears in my Lee 2nd right before or after the .38 S&W. . .is it an allusion to your true identity as an advocate for "Truth, Justice, the American Way and the .38 S&W"? Kind of 9.3 as the mild-mannered Clark Kent, and the .38 S&W as the muscular superhero? LOL

    In accordance with experiences you related on another forum, I intend to keep my .38 S&W's shooting 150g & 158g bullets I can cast, at high 600s to low 700s, rather than the 200g I like so much in .38 SPL. Depending on what performance I get out of a couple more configurations of 200g bullets from these .38 S&W's, I may adopt a heavy as my "service load" in that caliber, but shoot it very sparingly. I hope to get my 150g Ideal SWC in shape to become the terror of armadillos, raccoons, and the like. (The squirrels are too much fun for my terrier in "chase mode," and jackrabbits are something we only read about down here

    Dana

  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    2shot,

    I had meant to comment on your post earlier. The deer story--wow! Must have hurt to be him!

    My snub .38SPL load is a 200g at 718fps over my chrono--exactly in the vel range you use. I also find it far more comfortable to shoot than lighter bullets at higher vel. Probably partly due to muzzle flash in some cases (Hornady 125g JHPs struck me as very "flashy"); also to blast/report intensity. Most importantly to me, it feels like the 200g "pushes" you in recoil, rather than lashing back more rapidly. My wife prefers a 158g, though; I think she reacts to the torque you feel in the 200s.

  3. #43
    In Remembrance


    DLCTEX's Avatar
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    I'm still trying to figure out if Louisiana Man has a wife and three daughters, a wife and 7 daughters, or a wife and 11 daughter's from the number of pistols he talks about needing. Maybe he's Morman? Anyway he's a lucky man, I've just got sons (5). My wife likes the 38 Special for her shooting and prefers the Lee 125 gr. boolits. for targets, doesn't worry about penetration on targets.

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Talking

    Lucky indeed!

    Let's just hope nothin' needs all that much killin' . . . .

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Alliant 2400 meters VERY well in my RCBS Duo-Measure......very consistent charge-to-charge, and no hang-ups or bridging. It is very useful in higher-pressure revolver applications and is extremely useful as a rifle cast boolit fuel, too.

    FWIW, "9.3 x 62" refers to one of my favorite rifle calibers with cast boolits. I retired from that truth/justice bit roughly five years ago, and don't really miss it. The great people I did it with I stay in touch with, and go shooting and fishing with them from time to time. I do like the Grandpa/fishing/hunting gig that replaced it, very much so! Now that my eyesight issues are rectified.......LOOK OUT, VARMINTS--AND WATCH OUT, TROUT!
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy

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    Louisiana Man;

    I got straight penetration with that shot, but that was the only time I used it for deer. My original intent was to check penetration and see if the bullets did tumble when hitting flesh. I figured that if I got a deer down with my 41 mag I could take a chest shot on the dead deer and see what would happen with the 200 grain in a 1 7/8" barreled 38 Special. After seeing what it did to this deer that walked under my stand I have no fear in using it for my house or carry guns. I don't plan on having to shoot through automobile bodies or windshields so for my purpose it works out fine. My shots would be hand shaking distance.

    I cast mine from 30/1 alloy. I don't know if that made it track straighter than something harder or not but it did work (after all I was shooting straight down and had gravity helping pull the bullet down ). I didn't find that bullet that went through that deer because it buried itself into the frozen ground.

    I find these 200 grain loads easy to shoot better than the lighter snappier loads. Like you said, the lighter bullets have more muzzle flash and report or so it seems.


    2shot
    Last edited by 2shot; 02-20-2010 at 04:23 PM.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master Landric's Avatar
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    LA Man, I find the 9.5 grain 2400/ 358430 .38 Special combination very pleasant to shoot and nicely accurate. I haven't shot in in low light conditions, so I can't comment about muzzle flash. It meters perfectly in my RCBS Uniflow and Lee Perfect Powder Measures, but for some reason its not consistent in my Lee Pro Auto Disks.

    2400 is also good for hot rodding the .38 Special. I've gotten up to 1205 fps with a 173 grain Keith SWC out of a 4" barrel before I started getting pressure signs. Admittedly this is well beyond published data (and pressure). It worked for Uncle Elmer anyway.
    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

    Landric

    Honcho for NOE .38-200 Mk. I British Round Nose Group Buy

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Gabby, 9.3 and Landric,

    I am going to get my hands on some 2400 next time I get down to south Baton Rouge, and will load up some of those slobberknocker 200s @ around 850+. Will be interested to see how that feels in my still-unfired Mod. 15-4, Mod 67, etc. I'm tempted to try it in my Police Positive Special & Detective Special, also.

    Did Lyman list that 9.5g 2400 load as standard pressure or +P? Landric, I'll be very tempted to cast some of our group-buy LSWC's in 50-50 WW-Pb, to make them even heavier than 200g, then use my Forster hollow-pointer on the front--bring the weight back to 200g, plus a large HP cavity. Moving at mid-800s, these beasts should expand, penetrate, and generally get any recipient's attention

    BTW, for anyone interested in that group buy, you can order some or all mold cavities in hollow point. Come to think of it, I may change my order to include some HP capability to start with. At these velocities, that should be highly effective.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master Landric's Avatar
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    The Lyman manual where I got the data predates +P designations, so I just assumed that its a +P load by today's standards. Out of my 2" SP101 the same load was running right about 800 fps, but its wasn't really consistent, I suspect that the 2400 needs a longer tube to burn completely. I have noticed that in 4" tubes its a lot more consistent.

    One of the molds I am getting is the RG2 with gas checked HP's. I'm planning on casting them from soft alloy and then gas checking them to prevent leading. I'll be happy to send you some for expansion tests once we get the molds.
    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

    Landric

    Honcho for NOE .38-200 Mk. I British Round Nose Group Buy

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Landric,
    Makes sense on the 2400. I'll try 2400 for the 4" and stick to 231 for my 38SPL snubbie. Will definitely be happy to test your HPs!

    On the .38 S&W front, I've loaded up some RCBS 35-200 slugs that weigh 214-215g with my alloy of 50-50 WW-Pb + 4 oz tin/20 lbs. After studying this .35 Remington bullet next to a Lee group buy 358430 200g slug, it turned out I was able to seat the 35-200 perfectly in its crimp groove using the same die settings I used with the 358430, which I crimp in the top lube groove. The 35-200 has less bullet inside the case and a slightly longer COL of 1.275" vs. 1.270".

    I'll chrono it tomorrow with my starting load of 2.5g Win231--I reduced the 2.7g I used with the 358430, just for a safety margin. I'll try to develop something in the low-mid 600fps range and then try the obligatory milk jug test!

    Photo shows (L-R): .38 S&W 161g LSWC; 358430 LRN 198g; 35-200 LFP 215g; .38 SPL 193g 358430. (All wts. as-cast, rather than nominal.) Bullets are tumble-lubed and arrayed above respective loaded cartridges, with crimp locations aligned to facilitate comparison. Guns are Police Positive Special and Mod. 33-1.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 20 FEB 10 002.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 20 FEB 10 004.jpg  
    Last edited by LouisianaMan; 02-21-2010 at 12:10 AM.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Been watching this thread and wondering about accuracy of these heavy slow .38s. I've tried the group buy knock off of 358429 the 175 gr KSWC in my 18.75" twist Smiths and my 16" twist BH and had miserable groups, lots off paper (8.5" x 11" copy paper with a 2x2 patch of duct tape for aiming point, I am cheap and use lots of targets) at 25 yards. These were slow, in the 700 to 900 fps range. I figured the long boolits were not stabilized by the slow twist and slow velocity.

    What are you guys seeing with the 200 gr .38s?
    "Time and money don't do you a bit of good until you spend them." - My Dad

  12. #52
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Shoestring, I imagine your bullets were fine, but simply shot so high they weren't on the paper for you. Too many variables to tell from here, but look at my next post to see groups achieved at 50'.

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    RECOIL & PENETRATION TESTS


    RECOIL: I tried the 198g LRN in .38SPL with 3.0g Win231, seated in crimp groove. Average vel 574.6, so I'll probably need to try a 3.2g load to get velocities about the same as my .38S&W/200 load.

    Apparent recoil in the Colt Police Positive Special, cal. .38SPL, was approximately the same--perhaps a bit stronger--than the .38S&W/200 fired from a S&W Mod. 33-1. Both barrels are 4".

    Free recoil in the Colt .38SPL: 3 ft-lbs, 12 fps. In the S&W .38S&W: 4 ft-lbs., 14 fps. In other words, the .38SPL should have felt like it kicked less than the .38S&W.

    In all likelihood, the somewhat stronger felt recoil of the .38SPL was a function of two things: the roundness of the Colt grip isn't as stable for me as the S&W grip, and I was in an extreme prone position as I fired over my chronograph.

    Will post further recoil comparisons after I up the .38SPL/200 load to about 630fps, and fire it slow and rapid fire alongside the Smith .38S&W/200.

    PENETRATION: Although no milk jugs were injured in conducting the experiments above, 6 paid the ultimate price when I test fired one of the .38S&W/215g RCBS 35-200 cast from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. An 8-shot string chrono'ed as follows:
    LO 596.4, HI 668.4, AVG 622.8, ES 72.03, SD 21.44. Excepting the HI and LO shots, the other six were from 605 - 627 fps.

    The bullet tracked STRAIGHT through 6 jugs and embedded itself into the stop board 2x12, which was backed by other jugs. Clearly, the flat nose provides straight-on penetration, rather than the curving & apparent tumbling of the 200g LRN. Note that it is deeper in the stop board after 6 jugs than the 158g after 5 jugs.

    Photos below show embedded bullets (2 x 161g LSWCs, 1 x 215g LFN); revolvers and 50' targets--probably the first time these two minty guns were ever fired. POI was +7". The very clean LRN bullet in the photo of the 4" gun was found next to my line of jugs--it was one of those previously shot thru the jugs and originally not recovered.

    7 of my 8 .38S&W revolvers are shown; #8 is in active service w/daughter. . .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 21 FEB 10 002.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 21 FEB 10 003.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 21 FEB 10 004.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 21 FEB 10 006.jpg  
    Last edited by LouisianaMan; 02-21-2010 at 09:09 PM.

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    20 MAR 10 update with 200g and 150g bullets

    1. 200g results @ long range

    Attached photos of 50-yard target fired off of sandbags, prone, with the 358430 bullet in .38 S&W (vel. c. 630) from S&W Mod. 33. Bullet weight was 197-98g, cast .360 from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. See also "better" target with .38 SPL @ 725fps, 192-93g, cast from straight WW, sized .358, fired from S&W Mod. 67.

    I've plinked with autos at 75 yds before, but this is the first time I've fired a 50-yd. target with revolvers. Although my marksmanship is nothing to brag about, it would not have been fun to stand in front of the targets, especially since there was no keyholing at all. I presume the difference in accuracy was due primarily to better fit, sights, weight of M-67, esp. since Mod 33's sights are nickel--a bit of a strain in sunlight.

    I also fired .38 SPL into a live pine tree at 56 yards and my probe touched the base of the slug 1" deep, so the nose of the bullet penetrated about 1.8" into the wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

    When I fired the .38 S&W slug into a different live pine tree at 58 yards, my probe found the base 5/8" deep, so the nose penetrated about 1.5" into wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

    So, the .38/200 supposedly bounced off of an overcoat???? I can't speak personally for the British 178g FMJ service round, but this 358430 is very similar to the original Brit lead bullet 200g load, and anyone expecting his overcoat to stop this bullet had better be wearing blue tights with a big "S" on his chest!

    2. Water-filled milk jug penetration test with 150g LSWC

    BULLET: Lyman Ideal 360271 LSWC, nominally 150g, but 157g as-cast with 50-50+tin, sized .361

    LOAD: 2.5g Win231. COL = 1.086" Crimped in crimp groove.

    REVOLVER: S&W Mod. 33, 4" bbl.

    CHRONO: LO 694.6, HI 713.7, AVG 703.9, ES 19.08, SD 6.85

    POI @ 60' approx. +2"

    PENETRATION @ 10 FT." (with both 4" and 2" guns)
    a. Mod 33, 4" bbl: Shot chrono'ed at 690.3 fps, drove straight line thru all 6 jugs, halfway-exited #6 and buried up to shoulder in 2x12 stop board. Note deformed bullet nose in photo.

    b. Mod 32-1, 2" bbl" Shot chrono'ed at 581.2 fps. drove straight line thru 5 jugs, cracked hole barely in front of #6, and stuck horizontally between #5 and #6. Note undeformed bullet nose in photo.

    PHOTOS:
    #017: Mod 67 .38 SPL with 50-yd. target
    #018: Mod 33 .38 S&W with 50-yd. target
    #004: Mods. 33-1 and 32-1 used for water penetration test of 150g LSWC, with recovered bullets at respective muzzles. Other cartridges shown, with nominal bullet wts. (L-R): Lyman 360271 LSWC 150g; Lee LSWC-TL 158g; Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; flat-pointed Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; RCBS 35-200 LFP, 200g.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 38 S&W cartridge and 150g bullet photos, 20 MAR 10 004.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 20 MAR 10 017.jpg   38 S&W cartridge and bullet photos, 20 MAR 10 018.jpg  
    Last edited by LouisianaMan; 03-28-2010 at 08:13 PM.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master
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    LA Man--

    NICE WORK with the Terrier and Regulation Police! The 157 grain SWC penetration is a little surprising, but that's not a bad thing--at all.

    Myself, I would keep those Keith-intensity 38 Special loads away from a Police Positive Special. About the only D-frame Colt 38 Specials rated for +P loads are the Diamondbacks and late-series Detective Specials. The Model 15 and 67 S&Ws dote on such loadings, though.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    9.3x62AL,

    Thanks! Like you, I was pleasantly surprised at the penetration potential of the 157g LSWC at about 700fps.

    You know more about guns than I do--which of the loads I've discussed are you identifying as "Keith-intensity 38 Special loads"? Do you mean the 200g LRN @ 725 and 750 that I discuss, or the various 2400 loads others have used? I've shot the former loads in my PPS, but don't intend to use the latter in it. My thoughts with my PPS and Detective Special are, keep 200g loads to NTE 750fps in 4" (that's 718fps from D.S.), and 158g loads to NTE 800 or so in 4". I don't like to shoot anything heavier than that in a light gun, anyway, and am not interested in ruining my Colts. I want to use them , but not abuse them.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    I wonder how a 158 LSWC Hp cast out of 50/50 WW-Pb air cooled would expand at .38 S&W speeds... (hint hint)...

  18. #58
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    A soft 200Gn slug fired out of an old gun by a practiced, cool hand with a good combat mindset would be a better bet than heap of hollowpoints sprayed out of a modern magnum brass chucker by a nervous nellie or poorly trained shooter.
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  19. #59
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Dubber,
    Was about to sit down & write you about that very thing. Last weekend I loaded up a couple of those bad boys you sent, but immediately noticed a problem. When I ran it up to seat & crimp, the die sized down the bullet nose to a far smaller HP than you originally prepared. The resulting shot blasted thru a half-dozen water jugs like a LRN, w/o expanding. I have to get on the Net and see whether I can get a Lee FCD, then seat & crimp in separate operations--maybe that could help?

    Not sure why the seat/crimp die I have didn't try to swage down the wide meplat of my LRN-turned-LFP. If you have ideas, let me know. I want to shoot your bullet with that HP cavity at the size you provided--I bet it expands!

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Four Fingers,
    I couldn't agree more. Now, if I can just ensure I don't combine a 5-shot snubbie with a Nervous Nellie shooting style!

    After Spring Break starts next Saturday, I'm going to try Applegate-style point shooting with one of these S&W Mod 32-1 snubbies, and compare results with the excellent results I achieved last weekend with two K-frames. Then I'll train my wife & daughters on it for close-range shooting, and start developing their muscle memory in that system. In the past, I've had them fire two-handed, so we'll see if we can expand their repetoire.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check