Multigunner,
Wow, you've got me there! I've owned a .32 topbreak, but never knew of the design you describe. Seems like the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver, a design concept that never truly caught on, despite some merit.
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Multigunner,
Wow, you've got me there! I've owned a .32 topbreak, but never knew of the design you describe. Seems like the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver, a design concept that never truly caught on, despite some merit.
Very cool info, LM.
I understand why you're standardizing for your wife and girls. As you know, I've been looking the same way only with the 32 S&W, 32 hrm, and 327 Federal.
You really can get some nice old S&W revolvers for relatively little cash in the older calibers. I am just a tad short for the last 2 model 31's I saw in 32 S&W Long.
If you don't mind me interjecting here. I have had somewhat of a love afair with the .38 special and the Lyman 195 grain RN for some time when shot out of my S&W model 60 at 700/750 fps. It is a load that my wife and myself can shoot very well and to me the recoil and muzzle blast is much less out of that 1 7/8" barrel that any of the +P 158 grain loads. As far as the .38/200 and it's ability to stop as well as the 455 according to the Brit's I'm not sure. I have never shot a person with this load but I did shoot a deer that was under my tree stand, range of shot was about 6 feet and straight down with the Mod 60. I did not recover that bullet but I can tell you that from what I could tell the bullet went in a straight line penetrating from the deer's backbone down through it's leg and exiting about 6" from it's hoof. All the bone that was hit was cracked open like one would crack open a crab leg ( I believe that the bullet penetrated the hard outer bone and rode the marrow down the entire lenght). None of it was shattered into little pieces although there were several big pieces displaced and moved rather far from their God intended places. To put it plainly, the 200 grain load worked for me in this isntance and worked well, the deer just dropped DRT.
As far as the bullet tumbling with the .38/200 I find it interesting that while some people do not believe in this phenomenon with the .38/200 cartridge they will believe that the same phenomenon is happening with the 300 Whisper with overly heavy 240 grain bullets subsonic. I would like to point out an article that I just happened to read yesterday from Handloader # 164, July/August 1993. The title is "The .300 Whisper" by John Kronfeld. Part of the text on page 27 reads.
" Then he showed me pictures of 16 goats ranging in weight from 120 to 250 pounds, all had been taken with one shot at varying ranges, from the .300 Whisper, with heavy jacketed sub-sonic bullets and none of them were hit in the head, neck or spinal colum. Why is this low velosity round so lethal?
When these long bullets strike they don't expand, they tumble. This tumbling phenomenon, on flesh, is far wosre that being hit by an expanding bullet. The wound cavities and tissue destrucktion are staggering and as a best case senario, for the animal or enemy hit by one, it will incapacitate them instantly."
This is taken in part form questions asked to J.D. Jones, owner of SSK and inventer of the .300 Whisper. I don't know if this is true or not about the .300 Whisper the same as I don't know if it's true of the .38/200. All I know is that getting shot by either one is something I will avoid at all cost, it's gota hurt!
2shot
Doug,
Those .32s are indeed addictive. A very wide range of power available, especially to the reloader. I really enjoy them! Good luck getting together the last of your collection!
Yeah, I was funning around.
I like to shoot the .38 too and shooting water is just too much fun.
What I was trying to make fun of was the number of jugs needed and how to gather enough. Whitworth and I need a tractor trailer load! To even catch one boolit we need over 40 and that would be good for two shots.
If you use a bigger gun, drink up!
Great point. A friend on this board shoots 32 revolver caliber fairly regularly. I always thought this odd til he explained they were hand-me-downs from family and while they were not collectible (H&Rs) they were certainly very usable. So he casts and loads for the various calibers he can shoot for it which i think is pretty cool. Just because an odd revolver isn't in the "44/357/45 is the one shot master" argument it can still be useful and a heck of alot of fun to shoot to boot!Originally Posted by LouisianaMan
No harm done, in any event. I taught history at West Point for 6 years, and have been (rightfully) accused before of being interested in obsolescent stuffOK, OK, "obsolete" stuff! (gulp, it hurts to say it)
Most folks on these forums know that the .32S&W and .38S&W originated as break-top pocket gun calibers, designed to poke holes in an opponent and cause them to die three days later of peritonitis
These calibers may have persisted deep into the 20th century primarily because of inertia (read: availability). I imagine that was a significant reason, but I also think that pre-"automobile bandits" and pre-"crack/meth/PCP monsters," these calibers were adequate to defend homes against burglars and run-of-the-mill no'counts (old Southern pronunciation
For those of us who will master stronger calibers and/or autos, etc., great. For those who won't or can't, they're better off with a .32SWL or .38S&W that they shoot well and handle accurately. My 770fps 115g LFP .32SWL also penetrated 6 milk jugs (36" water) in a relatively straight line for about 4 jugs
For me personally, I can have it both ways: my primary HD sidearm is a caliber that first saw light in 1873, but that remains powerful enough for anything 2-footed and most 4-footers--the .45LC
You comment about the bullet veering is interesting as I had the same results years ago with the old W/W Super Police. I seem to remember Waters mentioning this also. Don't be put off by the folks who belittle a 38, there are a whole lot of folks who didn't survive contact with one of these. In the 50's that load and a S and W terrier were a hot carry combo for cops and my Dad packed one before he upped to a M36. You put that bullet in the right spot and it will still do the job. The gun you have WITH you is always a lot better than the one you left at home.
Very interesting reading, LA Man.
Pistol-fight dynamics have changed markedly since the 32 S&W and 38 S&W held sway. Two variables come into play, I believe--
1) Changes in law
2) Changes in medical technology
The law changed radically in roughly the 1950s and 1960s. In earlier times, it was judged proper and fitting to send bullets in pursuit of fleeing suspected felons, armed or not, in the quaint belief that society would benefit from the capture and prosecution or the demise of said offenders. Not so any longer--a dead suspect means little money and a lot less work for lawyers, so those precious fee-generators must be safeguarded at all costs in a progressive, modern society. Gag me with a spoon.
Advances in medicine and pharmacology have largely eliminated a lot of the fatal after-effects of gunshot wounds that didn't send the right message at time of transmission. The predators know this, and have a lot less reason to fear a gunshot wound than they did 50-75 years ago. No, that isn't rational--but what is rational about most criminality to begin with? In concert with this declining fear of lingering death after a gunshot wound, you have the added stimuli of drugs and alcohol to prompt further viciousness, and the knowledge that LEOs and citizens are statutorily dissuaded from projecting lethal force until an attacker is up close--in your face--and engaged in trying kill someone.
Thank God for right-to-carry, where possible. That is one of the few checks to wholesale violence in this carjacker's theme park our legislatures seem bound and determined to create. The criminal justice system is run like a bass fishery--catch and release, so the quarry gets larger--smarter--and harder to catch as time goes on.
I still wouldn't want to try catching 200 grains at 700 FPS, medical science notwithstanding.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Happens here all the time. Don't worry, it's just the same thing as the guys that have to have loud mufflers and big tires on their trucks.
To each their own, right?
LA Man, no worries. It's winter up north, and folks get a little bit of cabin fever as the snow piles up. This tendency will pass once Global Warming takes hold and super-heats the ice caps. If rising ocean levels will submerge Los Angeles and SFO, bring it on I say. I will miss San Diego, though.
But I digress. I have a nice little Colt Police Positive in 38 S&W x 4", .359" throats and .3575" grooves. Lyman #358477 casts big enough to be cleaned up in a .359" sizer die, and these shoot VERY well at 725-750 FPS, and right to the sights at 25 yards. It has become my "Kit Gun From Hell", loathed by jackrabbits and feared by ground squirrels. It shoots better and hits a lot harder than any S&W Kit Gun I've tried. Is it my first choice for repelling boarders? No--but I do believe that 18 of those 150 grain SWCs could soundly thrill any recipient determined to cause great harm to me or mine. They darn sure won't do them any lasting good!
HKS speed-loaders for the Detective Special work just fine with the 38 S&W and the Police Positive, just as Chief Special loaders likely work with the Models 32 and 33 and the Model 10 loaders work with the M&P K-frame Lend-Lease 38 S&W.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
When the Brits were testing the 38 S&W they found that the long 200 gr slug would tumble when it hit a man and as a result multiplied its take down power as compared to a slug that bored straight through. I have never heard of a guy who was thirty-six inches through the body so vast penetration is not what is required. The Brits estimated that the 38 S&W with a 200 gr RN slug (FMJ) had as much stopping power as the 455 Webly it replaced. This was later proved in combat to be the case. This kind of blows your mind when your are used to thinking More power is better doesn't it?
Nick SS, Where was it later proved in combat that the .38/200 load was as good a stopper as the .455? The .38/200 load was phased out before WWII and everything I have read about the 178 gr. jacketed that replaced it was negative.
Could the .455 and the 38/200 have been issued at the same time in WWI?
Whew, I've managed to start a caliber war between a .475 and a.38 S&W????
Nope, you started a JUG war!
dubber 123, The .38/200 wasn't adopted until the 1930s. Wasn't used in WWI at all.
I was wondering, dates of British arms isn't one of my strong points...The .455 Webleys were the issue arm for WWI then?
Or you simply grossly misinterpreted 44man's post...... By the way, I have large tires on my truck and the stock exhaust system -- does this mean my bite is bigger than my bark??Just funnin'.........
YOU ARE ALL HEREBY SENTENCED TO BE HANGED BY THE NECK UNTIL YOU CHEER UP.
An old "Monty Python's Flying Circus" line that seems timely. This boolit hobby-crafting is supposed to be FUN.
I haven't seen enough of the NEI 169A 200 grainers' work on critters to form an opinion yet, but the Lyman #358430/195 RN pretty reliably comes out of jackrabbits and coyotes sideways when launched from 38 Special or 357 Magnum revolvers. I won't project that tendency on smaller critters onto supposed effects on predatory humans, but the boolits do seem to cartwheel after impact--while SWCs of standard weight appear to drive straight-through. In no case was the recipient's condition improved by having sustained said impacts, I should note. Quite the contrary, in fact.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I have to dig back into my old Lyman 45th edition to find load data for the #358430 in revolvers.
Typical Lyman silliness omitting data for a bullet they still catalog. In a 6” 38 Special it shows 9.5 grains of 2400 pushing this 195 grain bullet 893fps. Looks like a winner to me. I've been dreaming for a 6 inch barrel K frame for some time. After all if it was good enough for Barney Fife it should be OK for me.
I have the 358430 mold but haven't machined it to mount in my caster yet. It's a handsome big piece of lead.
9.5 grains of 2400 got me an average of 880 fps in .38 Special brass with the 358430 from my 4" S&W 681. Its a fun load.
6.9 grains of HS-6 produced about the same velocity.
"The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix
Landric
Honcho for NOE .38-200 Mk. I British Round Nose Group Buy
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