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Thread: .38 S&W penetration test, 200g bullets

  1. #121
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    Buckshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oyeboten View Post
    Hi Buckshot,


    Wow that was fun..!

    Thanks

    I like how you have held the Bullets "out" a ways there in the one's shown on the Left.

    Well, there isn't really a lot of case to stick them into! Since the 2 Victory models will handle 38 Special loads, if you can match the internal case volumn of the 38 S&W case with a load in the 38 Special, you can safely use 38 Special load data. Lyman lists several 38 Special loads using the 35863 WC with the casemouth crimped over the top lube groove. In the 38 S&W case if you crimp the WC in it's BOTTOM lube groove you end up with the same 1.115" OAL

    I have been doing that with .38 Special and .45 Colt with Black Powder and '777' to get a little more in there, and, to lessen the jump to the Forcing Cone.

    I plan to do it also for my own .38 S&W Loadings for Mr. Iver Johnson, using BP.

    Why Red Dot? I am pretty uninformed on what is a good powder for What, especially once one wanders a little off the beaten path.

    Red Dot is supposed to be a clean burner, and besides, Lyman shows a load using it, but in the stonger S&W M33 revolver. I think I simply backed off a grain. I would imagine that if the IJ had a tighter BBL/CYL gap it might gain another 25-50 fps? Doesn't really matter as the old nightstand revolver isn't a carry gun, and none of the boolits have bounced off the target .............. yet! It's simply just fun to shoot and it's design and age is the charm.

    With a fast or medium fast Smokeless, I imagine, that if one hold the Bullet out as far as one can, it will allow a maybe better Loading with a better Charge volume to Air Volume for a desired Loading Density ( assuming one can calculate it alright which would not be too hard,) for a better push and no nasty pressure issues if trying to get all the safe ooooomph one can.

    I have been brooding on that lately.


    P.S.

    Can you narrow your Images?

    They have made the Thread a lot wider than my Screen, and I have to scroll sideways now to read things...it seems to have reset the Thread itself somehow.
    Ah, sorry. My screen is set at 100% and when doubling up photo's I always do a 'preview' to make sure it doesn't do that. Possibly your screen is set at more then 100%? My photo's are stored online and I have no way to reduce their size other then to rework them on my computer, then send them back to the hosting site, then include them in the posts.

    ..............Buckshot
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouisianaMan View Post
    Buckshot,
    Thanks for an excellent post! You are indeed The Man! Now, can you tell me how to (a) swage a .358 to a .360-something, and (b) how to form that hollow base? And if it is done with dies, and you make 'em, and you're willing to sell 'em, just let me know how much


    Well, actually they were done in a swage press.



    LEFT They go in as lube/sized .358" WC's RIGHT and they end up as .363" HBWC's. Since they're WC's you can turn them around for mojo HP's



    These're some 45's that have been hollow based (different die naturally).



    Here's some that have been converted into HB-SWC's.



    For softer lead alloys a press mounted (7/8-14 TPI) die would work. This die altered the boolit's directly above into HB-SWC's.

    ...............Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

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    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

    Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance

  3. #123
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Sure, glad to post images as soon as I get back home. Am currently attending a brigade in-service (JROTC) training in Vicksburg. Will get photos up tomorrow evening or Friday.

    My sizer & "smusher" are both threaded & sized like normal reloading diews, so I put them in my Lyman turret press. Since I don't know how luber-sizers are set up (I tumble lube), I don't know if they fit or if Buckshot can make it fit. In any event, you could use them in whatever you have for a reloading setup.

  4. #124
    Boolit Master Oyeboten's Avatar
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    Ahhhh...

    I have an old 'Lyman' Press called the 'Tru-Line Sr.' which is very stout...I am sure it could "mush" just fine, or, do light swaging within reason, if it had the right Dies.

    My 'Tru-Line Jr.', no...Lol...

  5. #125
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    I just purchased a Colt Police Positive and a "war finish" (and no safety) .38 Webley Mk IV this week. I gotta stay away from Gunbroker for a while now.

    I figure the Webley is the stronger of the two since the Brits spec'ed the .380/200 ammo at much higher pressure than the American .38 S&W and .38 Colt NP, so I'll probably use it for the initial load development and use a Chronograph and QuickLOAD to sanity check the data. I would love to work up an accurate target load for the Colt before the fall Bullseye league starts up, because how cool would that be to use an 80+ year old gun in the competition?

    I have a box of Speer 148 grain HBWC swaged bullets, and a couple of hundred old Remington 158 grain SWC's that have a slightly hollow base. Those should both work OK until I can find something better. The 148's might even match what the Colt sights are regulated for.

    Did anyone ever find a 190+ grain boolit mold that will work for the Webley? How about a .35 rifle mold? (did anyone ever make .36 Minie' balls?)

    If I can find the right boolits, the Webley may become my HD gun. I think I even have some speed loaders that will fit it.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by zxcvbob View Post
    Did anyone ever find a 190+ grain boolit mold that will work for the Webley?
    Close, but a little light for your specs. The NOE 360-180 WFN mould works really well in mine and hits to point of aim. Mine run 184-187 grains cast of WW.

    A K-frame S&W speedloader works fine. I keep thinking I'll use it in an IDPA match, but haven't yet.

  7. #127
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    The 200 grain boolit I'm using for the Webley-Enfield DAO and the S&W M&P is the NEI #169A, which imitates form and weight of the issue bullet of the British using services. Both of my revolvers have throats of .362"-.363", so I size the boolits to .363" in a Lyman H&I die of that dimension. These are regular-stock items currently. Thanks are due to OKSMLE for the intro to this boolit design. Run to 700-725 FPS, these provide a recoil impulse that implies a bit more power than a shooter might expect from the 38 S&W. I sure as h--l wouldn't want to field one that was incoming.

    As far as the Colt Police Positive is concerned, mine has .359" throats--so I was able to use Lyman #358477 sized to that spec. These go where the sights are looking at 725 FPS, and put the whomp on jackrabbits to 40 yards--which is my longest hit to date. FWIW, HKS speedloaders for the Colt Detective Special work perfectly in this role.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  8. #128
    Boolit Grand Master Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    The 200 grain boolit I'm using for the Webley-Enfield DAO and the S&W M&P is the NEI #169A, which imitates form and weight of the issue bullet of the British using services. Both of my revolvers have throats of .362"-.363", so I size the boolits to .363" in a Lyman H&I die of that dimension. These are regular-stock items currently. Thanks are due to OKSMLE for the intro to this boolit design. Run to 700-725 FPS, these provide a recoil impulse that implies a bit more power than a shooter might expect from the 38 S&W. I sure as h--l wouldn't want to field one that was incoming.

    As far as the Colt Police Positive is concerned, mine has .359" throats--so I was able to use Lyman #358477 sized to that spec. These go where the sights are looking at 725 FPS, and put the whomp on jackrabbits to 40 yards--which is my longest hit to date. FWIW, HKS speedloaders for the Colt Detective Special work perfectly in this role.
    I have a sweet little ol' Po Po in 38S&W and hitting a rabbit at 40yeardsis no mean feat! Even a big one!
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  9. #129
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    Hey all, I'm new here so here is what I have done for loading the .38 s&w.

    I am waiting for some .360 boolits from Midway so I can use actual listed load data for a 146 grain boolit. I have loaded .358 125 grainers with 2.2 grains of Bullesye with very fine results in about the 730 to 755 fps range. Today, for all you others like me, I loaded 25 rounds using Pyrodex P. I used a Lee .5cc dipper and it was just about right for the boolit to come into contact with the powder, yet not compress it. They clocked at 550 fps. Lots of smoke!

    Here is another question - could one load the .38 S&W using 38 special load data in the 8 grains of Bullseye range (or even 4) that is typically listed for a 125 grain .357/.358 boolit? The reason I ask before anyone says, NO, NO , NO you'll blow the gun is that I have heard many folks who have bored the cylinders so that the old Smith and Wesson Victory model circa 1944 would take standard .38 special loads that were and still are readily available. So I think that the gun is able to handle the 15,000psi range. Also, my dad, who got this pistol during WWII in a battlefield trade, claims that he and his buddies would take 9mm Luger rounds and crimp the case head to allow the extractor to catch and eject the spent rounds. I know that sounds insane to me, but a 22 year old in France at the time may not have cared! LOL! Given the boolit diameter of .355 for that 9mm Luger perhaps it forgave the pressure since there was some .006" clearance with that round and there was no where near the normal pressure a 9mm would normally create. I am not about to try this trick given my loading options. Note that he never mentioned if it was accurate!

    I find my loads, including the Pyrodex, shoot very nicely and very accurately. It's pretty easy to handle. But for a bit more power has anyone pushed the powder more toward .38 Special loading?

    Thanks for the replys!

  10. #130
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    EIGHT GRAINS OF BULLSEYE??!! Certainly, you meant 3 grains......I hope.

    Data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 (pp.143) shows a load weight range of 2.0 grains of Bullseye with the 150 grain SWC giving 572 FPS up to 2.5 grains of BE yielding 719 FPS--these from a 4"-barrelled S&W Model 33.

    I imagine that one of the Lend-Lease S&W Victory models could enable a little velocity with the lighter-weight boolits, though I haven't tried that. Just sure as h--l, one of the +P rounds would find its way into my little Police Positive, and wreak havoc. I load the 200 grain boolits ONLY to go in the S&W M&P or the Webley-Enfield, and the 150 grain SWCs to ONLY go in the Colt PP. All are fixed-sight platforms, and all seem to be regulated for the loads/boolit weights used in the respective platforms.

    You don't mention which 38 S&W revolver you are loading for.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  11. #131
    Boolit Buddy LouisianaMan's Avatar
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    Ditto on the "8 grains of Bullseye," as I think your flash-to-bang time would be measured in milliseconds. (For those not in on the joke, the Army taught us to count the seconds between the brilliant flash of a nuclear burst and the time when the sound reached you, thus allowing survivors to deduce distance to the vaporized target.)

    IMO, the best move with your Victory would be to load heavy bullets, 180-200 grains, at low 600's. The 146's will probably shoot very low in that gun, as that bullet was for smaller pocket revolvers, originally. 9.3x62AL is an authority on this subject, and is offering sound advice. All the old top-breaks and even the subsequent solid-frame Smiths & Colts were originally designed to use that same ammo, i.e. 145-46 @ 685 or so, until the 200g heavyweight was adopted about 1930 by the British Army and also by many US users as the 38 Super Police. I imagine civilian solid-frame revolvers of later manufacture had sights regulated for the lighter bullet, even if they were strong enough to be used with the heavier one.

    I admit to having hotrodded this cartridge somewhat--not usually, and strictly over a chrony--but I used Ken Waters "Pet Loads" as a guide. And he listed some loads I never will try, I assure you. If you load the bullets/ cartridges long, you may get some COL's similar to 38 SPL COL's, and thus can refer to associated 38SPL data as a general guide. Be careful, work up, etc., because tenths of a grain of powder matter in such a small case. And thousandths of an inch matter when it comes to bullet diameter, chamber throats, groove diameter, and COL's.

    Many published loads exist that allow you to use 158g bullets to achieve low-end, standard pressure 38 SPL ballistics, i.e. 700-750-ish. If you crank up your 146's even higher, you'll find the disparity between POA and POI to be even greater, I imagine, as light, fast bullets are going to shoot well below your Victory's sights.

    I sure hope your "8 grain" reference was a typo, because that would be totally off the charts. Stay safe, and happy shooting.

  12. #132
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Some tests in S&W Victory .38 S&W

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  13. #133
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    Nice. I need to figure out how to get my 10-5 in .38 Spl to shoot to POA with a 200 grainer.


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  14. #134
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    Good stuff, thank you. I have that 36-176P I shoot out of a Terrier. Enjoy shooting that little blaster. Time to get it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Some tests in S&W Victory .38 S&W

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  15. #135
    Boolit Buddy Ajohns's Avatar
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    Looks like the nose diameter of 36-176P rides nice down the bore. Very nice group there. Impressive shooting for all of them.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check