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Thread: Testing hardness with pencils

  1. #241
    Boolit Mold
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    I realize that this is an old thread, but to add one point that I did not see mentioned. What I read/saw was to use the pencils, sand the point off to a flat blunt end, then use the edge to test the material be it lead, ww, etc.

  2. #242
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
    Now I just bought a set of artists' pencils from Amazon to test my stuff - cool wizardry on this forum, thanks!
    Industry has been using the poor-man's pencil test in the coating and painting industry for MANY years. Not new....just a re-application of an old "seat-o-you-pants" technology.

  3. #243
    Boolit Mold
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    I know this is an old tread but hopefully someone still look at it. I have cast my first lead ingots and got a set of pencils to test the hardness but the first pencil that is able to scratch the lead would be a 4H. I cant find how hard that lead is anywhere. Does the Scale go past 2H and how could I get this lead softer than 4H?

  4. #244
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by asmusg View Post
    I know this is an old tread but hopefully someone still look at it. I have cast my first lead ingots and got a set of pencils to test the hardness but the first pencil that is able to scratch the lead would be a 4H. I cant find how hard that lead is anywhere. Does the Scale go past 2H and how could I get this lead softer than 4H?
    I don't know where to find the bhn conversion for 4H, but gotta think you are in the 32-34 BHN range. Foundry lead comes in at 34 BHN I think. Just playing with this calculator 10:1 (10 soft to 1 foundry) will give you an 11 BHN. Just an idea of how much soft lead it will take.

    In this calculator I chose the sick-on WW as being closest to pure/soft lead. Just a matter of playing with the ratios to get to your target BHN. But it's a wag not knowing what your lead source was/is.
    https://www.weatherby.dk/bhn.htm

    edit: did you file off a bit of surface to find a flat smooth spot for your pencil? That will eliminate any odd material that may be have migrated to the surface if your smelt temps were too high.
    Last edited by oley55; 07-15-2021 at 09:29 PM.
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  6. #246
    Boolit Master
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    It does work. And with the Lee tester being out of stock everywhere it's a good choice.

  7. #247
    Boolit Buddy MaLar's Avatar
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    I don't know if this helps. I've been collecting info on lead hardness for some time.

    Staedtler Hardness Chart:
    8B Sheet lead
    7B
    6B Lead wire 5 BHN
    5B 40/1 lead / tin
    4B
    3B 1/20 tin/lead 10 BHN
    3B Clip-on WW
    2B Range scrap
    B 20/1 Lead / tin
    B Quenched range scrap
    B Air cooled WW
    B WW+2% tin
    HB Lyman #2 15 Bhn
    F Lyman #2
    F Commercial cast
    H 50/50 Lino /WW
    H Linotype 20 Bhn
    2H Quenched WW
    2H Monotype
    3H Foundry Hardness about 30 BHN
    4H

    Rough BHN to Staedtler Hardness Conversion Chart:
    6B = Pure lead, about 5 BHN
    5B
    4B
    3B = 1in20 tin/lead alloy, age softened, about 10 BHN
    2B
    B
    HB = Lyman no 2 alloy, about 15 BHN
    H = Linotype, supposedly about 22 BHN, but that seems high
    2H
    3H
    4H
    8B Sheet Lead
    7B
    6B ~ 5 BHN Pure Lead (Lead wire)
    5B 40/1 (Plumbers Lead)
    4B 25/1
    3B ~10 BHN 20/1 ACWW
    2B 20/1 ACRS
    B ~12 BHN 20/1 ACWW (ACWW+2% Tin) WDRS
    HB ~15 BHN (Lyman #2) (#2 Pencil)
    F (Lyman #2) (ACWW+2% Tin) WDWW
    H ~20 BHN Lino 50/50
    2H Monotype (WDWW)
    3H Foundry Hardness about 30 BHN
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  8. #248
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks for the advice I have seen that chart before just not one that went higher than 2H. All of my lead was random chunks I have acquired so its hard to tell where it came from. I just ordered a thermometer so will try filing the ingot because if I had to guess my temps were too hot. Thanks for all the advice.

  9. #249
    Boolit Mold
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    So I would need roughly 10 pounds of soft lead to offset 1 pound of this lead if its around 34 BHN?

  10. #250
    Boolit Buddy MaLar's Avatar
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    I have a couple hundred pounds of Foundry type. I mix 1 pound of foundry to 12 pounds of lead for soft boolits.
    And 2 pound to 12 lead for harder. I also powder coat every thing but my black powder loads.
    Those who choose violence as a first option are typically confronted by somebody else using violence as a last resort.

    Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you’ll enjoy it a second time.

    Do not confuse my being polite for weakness.
    Using MX Linux 21


    From the free state of Idaho

  11. #251
    Boolit Mold Moromane's Avatar
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    1:10 foundry has been great for my needs so far

  12. #252
    Boolit Buddy
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    I've read and skimmed through the rest of threads here. There are a lot. I didn't notice anyone mentioning pencil sharpeners. I started with dollar store pencil sharpeners that either sharpened the pencils to a dull tip. If I tried to sharpen the pencil to a sharp tip, the sharpener would break the tip off. Notice that the original art pencils are sharpened at a deep angle. This made for a tip that was less prone to breaking and not scratching my lead ingots well. The sharpener I bought and like is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...title_o01_s00?
    ie=UTF8&psc=1. I can adjust angle of the pencil and I've sharpened over 100 pencils with it so far.

  13. #253
    Boolit Buddy
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    Another topic not mentioned is the bhn after casting. The bhn of your ingot will change over time. I've taken measurements soon after casting and ingot and measured the hardness 6 monhs and a year later and the hardness changed.

  14. #254
    Boolit Master
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    I don't know about the sharpening bit because I don't use the pencil test but I will say that the BHN change with age is discussed on here all the time. Not a week goes by that it is not mentioned somewhere in here.

  15. #255
    Boolit Buddy



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    Quote Originally Posted by rob45 View Post

    A relative test has value in the sense that it allows one to quickly determine if a material is "harder" or "softer" than another. Unfortunately, the deficiency of any such test is that it fails to provide accurate numeric data, and as such, fails to allow reliable exchange of data between individuals. In other words, a relative test provides value only to the individual employing the test.
    Additionally, who is going to speak to the tolerance used in the manufacture of these pencils? I know that if you are using pencils to try to determine hardness, there is great desire for the system to be meanigful, but those are not calibrated pencils. They vary. They even vary within a given pencil. This is why industry does not use the pencil test. I know they are expensive, but I bit the bullet so to speak and ponied up the bucks for a Chinese brass hardness tester ($450) for testing my case annealing adventures, and a Lee lead hardness tester ($75). This is way too much for many people who are reloading or handloading. But, without the right tools, well, you know. I am vitally interested in experiments regarding case neck hardness and precision shooting results, groups. I needed something that would give me numerical data that I can record to actually establish what happens. I could only do that with a real Webster Hardness tester for brass. Be careful if you buy one of these, because the cheaper ones are for aluminum alloys. I also wanted to be able to test the hardness of bullet jackets I intend to draw from sheet copper. This requires more data than I could get out of pencils. And yes, I understand that the pencil test is for lead alloys used in bullet casting. $20 spent on pencils is almost a third of the price for a Lee lead hardness tester.
    Last edited by barryjyoung; 10-25-2023 at 12:51 PM.

  16. #256
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Arrow

    All, You may want to look at this, particularly posts from Molly (Ken Mollohan), the inventor of the test: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...s-with-pencils

    Btw, Molly was one of the founders of the Cast Bullet Association,

  17. #257
    Boolit Mold
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    Works out to be 13.3 BHN

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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