Home made dies

[uncleskippy]

Martin,

On you extractor, how did you attach it to your press? I see the you have some bolts going down next to your punch holder. I am in the process of making an extractor.

Thanks

[martin]

Gang,

I am pleased to share my pictures and tell my story in pictures of my die making activities. I thank you for your kind complements.

ANeat, I would be happy to swap some bullets when you get going with the RCE dies. Currently, I have been doing .223's (in 50, 52, and 55 grain) which are good performers and .243's (in 70 grain) that are unknown performers.

In regards to Storydude and Plus1hdcp's posts, I am honored that you would consider me making additional dies for you but I don't have the time to dedicate to making aditional dies. I work between 55 and 60 hours a week at a regular job and right now my wife is a little miffed that I don't spend enough time with her Things would be different if I was retired but that won't happen for at least another 10 years

In the big picture, this is a hobby for me. It allows me to wind down after a tough day or week at work. It also challenges me and keeps me occupied while being "hands on". The long and short of it is that I have a lot of things that I would like to do for myself (like cutting chambers in rifle barrels) before doing things for others.

Martin

[martin]

Uncleskippy,

In regards to your question about the extractor, when I thought this through, I came up with the following:

I machined a new shorter ram for my Rockcrusher press out of 316 stainless. I started with a piece of 1 inch stock and had to take off about .005 in diameter to get to the right size to fit into the hole.

On the end of the ram, I sliced off about 1/2 inch and machined a hole to hold my punch (about .315) and three screw holes on the top (about 3/16 in from the diameter. I made mating holes in the ram and tapped the ram with 8x32 threads. At this point, the 1/2 inch piece matches the ram with through holes. I took a 3/4 inch piece of bar stock about 1/4 inch thick and transferred the holes from the 1/2 inch piece onto it and drilled them. The final result is that I use 3 cap head screws from the top to hold the 3/4 inch bar stock in place with th 1/2 inch punch holder sandwitched in between. The 3 cap head screws thread into the ram.

There are probably other ways of accomplishing the same thing but this was quick and simple. The down side of this design is that every time I want to change external punches, I have to remove the entire assembly and re-assemble with the new punch.

Martin

[uncleskippy]

Great idea. It takes the place of drilling a hole in your Rock Chucker's Ram

Thanks

[martin]

Uncleskippy,

The idea of a shorened ram is that the highest amount of pressure that can be applied is at the top of the stroke (since it is a camming action). Since my dies set fairly low in the press from the top, the shortened ram is a good solution when swaging. It is one that I read about someplace so I cannot take credit for it.

By the way, since I now have two rams, it only takes a minute to go back to the old ram if I choose to use the press for reloading. Works out pretty slick.

Martin

Martin

[martin]

Doug F et. al.,

A few more pictures:

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A few of my core cutter as requested. Also a few of my lapps and pointing die casts as the lapping progressed.

Enjoy,
Martin

[Doug_F]

Ingenious!!! Thanks Martin. You do beautiful work and I'm anxious to try my hand at die making. I'll be elated if I'm able to turn out a product that even half as nice as your stuff.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[martin]

Dear gang,

I was thinking last night about those of you in this forum that are interested in dies and came up with an idea that may be worthy of discussion:

What if one or more on this forum had access to some CNC and EDM machines and was able to do a limited run of say 20 sets in various caliber rough dies, die holders, and laps. These dies would be within a thousands or two and would then go through heat treatment. They may be able to be produced at a resonable cost and then sold in their rough form. The person on the other end purchasing these dies would then do the lapping and polishing work (which is the highest labor content) to produce finished dies to whatever dimensions they desired.

The thought here is that the threads could be cut, holes could be bored, flats could be machined and everything could be done but the finishing in a production manner.

Now, having said all that, I would think that the right way to go about this would be to find a well equiped shop that would be interested in doing a limited run. I would suggest doing the primary work on a CNC machine, do the holes for the squirt die and core seat die on a wire EDM machine, and do the cavity in the pointing die with plunge EDM.

As far as punches and die holders these could be produced on a CNC machine to fairly close dimensions. The punches could be a couple of thousands oversized, heat treated and the end user could finish them.

In terms of drawings and specifications that seems fairly simple with Autocad.

Several questions enter my mind at this point:

What is the market and how many would be interested in purchasing these? If only a few, this may not be worthwhile to pursue.

How would somthing like this be structured - seems like one or two people would front the money and coordinate all the necessary design, manufacturing, orders and distribution.

Your thoughts?

Martin

[jixxerbill]

Dear gang,

I was thinking last night about those of you in this forum that are interested in dies and came up with an idea that may be worthy of discussion:

What if one or more on this forum had access to some CNC and EDM machines and was able to do a limited run of say 20 sets in various caliber rough dies, die holders, and laps. These dies would be within a thousands or two and would then go through heat treatment. They may be able to be produced at a resonable cost and then sold in their rough form. The person on the other end purchasing these dies would then do the lapping and polishing work (which is the highest labor content) to produce finished dies to whatever dimensions they desired.

The thought here is that the threads could be cut, holes could be bored, flats could be machined and everything could be done but the finishing in a production manner.

Now, having said all that, I would think that the right way to go about this would be to find a well equiped shop that would be interested in doing a limited run. I would suggest doing the primary work on a CNC machine, do the holes for the squirt die and core seat die on a wire EDM machine, and do the cavity in the pointing die with plunge EDM.

As far as punches and die holders these could be produced on a CNC machine to fairly close dimensions. The punches could be a couple of thousands oversized, heat treated and the end user could finish them.

In terms of drawings and specifications that seems fairly simple with Autocad.

Several questions enter my mind at this point:

What is the market and how many would be interested in purchasing these? If only a few, this may not be worthwhile to pursue.

How would somthing like this be structured - seems like one or two people would front the money and coordinate all the necessary design, manufacturing, orders and distribution.

Your thoughts?

Martin

very good idea !!!!! but all i need is point form dies in 6mm,.30,and 45 lol ill do all the rest......bill

[Doug_F]

That's a cool idea Martin but I'm broke after spending so much lately on parts kits for various guns. All but 1 of them are waiting on me to buy the parts I need to finish them.

However, I might be interested later after my bank account has had time to recover.

[plus1hdcp]

Great idea Martin but I agree with you about the logistics. Getting enough people to commit funds necessary would be difficult at best. I will continue reading this thread in anticipation, hoping I run across someone locally who has a lathe and will to assist me, or just pony up the funds and purchase my own set of dies.

[scrapcan]

Martin,

I think you have a good idea on trying to get a run of roughed blanks. I would be interested in that. The hard part so far has been getting the thru hole to be concentric with die.

would you be looking at 7/8x14 dies for reloading press or specific swage die diemension? My preference would be 5/8x24 dies blanks to fit a corbin/rce/blackmon style presses.

[martin]

manleyjt,

You state the "hard part so far has been getting the thru hole to be concentric with the die". Could you expand on that a little more and identify where the the issue a little more? Is it that the hole is not concentric with the ouside diameter? Is it that the punches don't line up with the die when they are in the press? From this, maybe I can help.

In your question about dies for a reloading press or specific to a swaging press, I think at this point we could define this any way we wished. I have been using 9/16 x 18 with my dies and it seems to work pretty well for my die holders and reloading press. I also have a "Mighty Mite" press coming. When I get the press I may change my mind on die threads moving forward to adapt to this press. It seems to me that a standard could be developed that would accomodate both and that may in fact be 5/8 x 24 or 5/8 x 18. In other words I have to look at this a little further.

From the responses I have received so far, it does not look to promising to do a run of rough die blanks. I was hoping that others would jump in to say that they had either access to EDM equipment or had contacts with someone that did and was possibly interested. I am sure that there are shops out there that could do the work but the "set-up" charges and the minimum quanties would probably be a killer.

Martin

[scrapcan]

Martin,

I am having issues with keeping the thru hole for the punch straight, this is mostly due to my lack of expereince with using the lathe. It will come I am sure, but I need to learn to sharpen the drills properly first. That lowly drill bit is very important and most of us commoners have no idea how truely improtant drill geometry really is.

One other option I see is to offer blanks in a non heat treated state. Just turned for outside dimensions and a good thru hole. One could then work on getting the cavities cut and to and base punches made. I am mainly thinking on the line of point form and lead tip dies. But the core swage die could be done this way with bleed holes in blank.

I am sure this woudl not be an econominc endeavor for a large shop, but some of the hobby or small shops might could use a bit of work even if it is only a few hours.

I feel that if we can only get a few hours for them and they can do the job, that is a few hours they did not have.

Having thrown that out there, I will tell you most of the time I am told my ideas are all wet and not worth the trouble. Thus the reason there is an old SB heavy 10 in the garage, a pile of books on the shelf, a load of chips/swarf in the pan, and a bucket full of tries.

[ANeat]

If I was looking into making quite a few dies of one caliber I would consider having a reamer made up, perhaps a couple. One to cut an undersized "bullet" shape and one for the undersized straight sided die (core seat)

I wouldnt think cutting the die with a reamer wouldnt be any more of a challenge than chambering a rifle barrel


I have very little to no "die" experience so take that for what its worth. I have chambered a few rifles.


Of course then you have the situation where you need to decide on caliber and bullet type. Do you want 4s 6s 8s, what threads, as mentioned.
And of course what "material" LOL

[Doug_F]

Manley,

Are you sharpening the drill bits by hand or using some type of machine?

[martin]

Manleyjt,

Yes the a drill bit that has not been properly sharpened can cause real problems in producing a streight and properly sized hole. Although I know how to sharpen drill bits on a grinder, I don't trust myself when the hole has to be "right on". For the most part, when I am doing somthing critical, I will reach for a new drill bit. I also only use drill bits of the highest quality and this comes from experience. In my opinion, the little bit of extra cost is worth less frustration in the end.

On terms of your SB lathe, pile of books and loads of chips, that is the way I got started in this hobby a few years ago. The point is that you are learning along the way. I also have made a lot of scrap but seldom make the same mistake twice. You should be encouraged that for every mistake made and corrected, you have learned and are one step closer to achieving your final goal. Isn't that what this is all about? I know I sound like a real optimist but I must admit that I have been close a couple of times of hanging it up on die making. Usually after a couple of days, I am back at it again starting anew. The point is when somthing does not go according to plan, walk away, calm down and then come back after reviewing what went wrong. I once put over a hundred hours in a die to have it get oversized in the final stages

If there is anything I or others can do to help, please let us know. Chances are that someone else has experienced the same thing along the way.

Martin

[martin]

ANeat,

You have a good idea about reamers. I must admit that I don't always get a good finish with a reamer. It seems like the chips that are formed sometimes get between the wall of the hole and the flutes of the reamer and score the wall. I use lots of oil and sometimes it works out ok and sometimes not. Most of the time I am only reaming out .002 to .004 of the material. Suggestions?

In my opinion, I think that the material the dies are made from is a personal preference. There probably is a number of tool steels that are suitable. My choice of O-1 was strickly based on what I read and availability. I am not super concerned about the die material holding up or wearing since I am not making millions of bullets from the same die. I think 30K would be maximum for me and my shooting buddies

Marrtin

[ANeat]

Martin I always had good luck reaming out chambers. Doing a die may be a whole nuther animal but who knows?
I know when doing a rifle chamber I clean out the reamer and hole a lot. Probably every couple of turns doing the last bit by hand


For my needs Ill probably do what yourself and others have done, Making my own "D" reamer and going from there.

It would be handy to have some mass produced laps but then again a person would have to decide on caliber and bullet shape

[jixxerbill]

laps ,laps,and more laps ....lol after getting my laps and aluminum oxide cutting compound i was really worried about making a mess !!! but after a couple trial runs on scrap, I LOVE LAPS !!!!! the only problem is they r a little pricey ($20.00 each for standard sizes and $20.00 + $25.00 set-up fee for non standard sizes) and the will only go .005 over there stated size !!! but they work great.... i drill hole .007 to .010 under reamer size, then ream and lap. been working good so far...american lap company is where i get mine, dude is really nice and helped me with my questions.... hope this helps....bill