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Thread: Home made dies

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    Country,

    you may have a point about the die wear and die sales. I also agree with you on trying to machine and polish to that kind of accuracy would be much more difficult and that your goal of .001" is probably just fine to make good bullets. However, I would think that when making a long rifle bullet compared to a shorter pistol bullet this difference in die size will be different. In many of the rifle bullet point forming dies I have, the effort to push the seated core into the die is quite low, so I don't believe the bullet can have enough internal force to bump it up very much, where some of the pistol bullet dies a person can generate more force and bump the diameter up a little more. If the difference is too great you can end up with a bullet that is full diameter at the base and the begining of the ogive, but smaller in the middle. Maybe someone else here can confirm or reject this. As I said before, I am no expert in this area, just trying to learn and add where I think I can.

  2. #82
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    just a few things ive found out !!! my core seat die i made is putting out cores with lead seated at a dia. of .3535 (with my elcheapo mic) im using my larry blackmon point form die and they bump up to .3552 with no problem !! but as was stated on previous page pistol bullets may be easier to bump up from the core swage die than rifle bullets are ??? i just got my lapping equipment and lapped my core swage die tonight, but i still have a small band at base of bullet that is not expanding (its only noticible because after annealing my copper it turns dark, after point forming it shines back up, except the ring at base) so i guess the problem is in the copper tubing roundover die ??.....anyhoo good luck and hope the info helps ....bill

  3. #83
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    We have a multy format discussion going on here . Not the best way to get accurate results.
    My previous comments are restricted to rifle bullets with commercial jackets only .

    KTN. I think you may be getting too much core swaging pressure . Which translated means that the lead alloy is too hard for the bleed hole diameter or the bleed hole diameter is too small for pure lead.
    Also there is the possibility that the core swaging punch is slighly too small for the die opening.
    However with you explanation of " holding for a count of 5" I think you are applying too much force for too long.
    If the die and lead hardness are correct then you should not need to hold the core under pressure for that long. You may infact damage your die and expand it.
    You may have already and that could be why it's bleeding past the punch.
    If you are looking for more precision in your cores then it would be better to double swage the cores without the heavy pressure.
    The second swage of the core with it already at its max diameter and near to final weight gives a nice dense precise core. Both swages can be the minimum pressure and time to form a core and way easier on the press and die.

    Also to seat a core in a jacket all you need to do is apply enough pressure to make the jacket stay inside the die after the punch is withdrawn. This indicates that the jacket has poped up to the die diameter . Any additional force is just expanding the die and increasing the chance of lead bleed by or even cracking the die.

    MIBULLETS
    As far as rifle bullets go there is no problem bumping up .001 at all from the core seater to the point form die. As long as a good fitting base punch is used and the press has the leverage.
    In a purpose made swaging press and dies with the core seater It is quite possible to bump a .264 jacket and core all the way to 270 (.277) .
    However the match between the cores seater and point former has to be much closer . I have a core seater I made that is .002 smaller and has a slight .0005 taper that was a lapping mistake but it bumps up in the point former to a straight .308 bullet that is very accurate.
    I aim for .001 match but just like my shooting I sometimes miss.
    Funny things can happen to bullets with poorly made and matched dies and wasp waisted bullets can result in rare cases.
    I have little experience with pistol bullets although years ago I made 44's (.429) but I have not used any in years.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixxerbill View Post
    just a few things ive found out !!! my core seat die i made is putting out cores with lead seated at a dia. of .3535 (with my elcheapo mic) im using my larry blackmon point form die and they bump up to .3552 with no problem !! but as was stated on previous page pistol bullets may be easier to bump up from the core swage die than rifle bullets are ??? i just got my lapping equipment and lapped my core swage die tonight, but i still have a small band at base of bullet that is not expanding (its only noticible because after annealing my copper it turns dark, after point forming it shines back up, except the ring at base) so i guess the problem is in the copper tubing roundover die ??.....anyhoo good luck and hope the info helps ....bill
    I agree with the diameter bump you state , it is very close to what I have experienced also .
    Copper tubing jackets are harder to bump up than most commercial jackets.
    J4 jackets are about the easiest as they have no thicker base section.
    Pistol bullets don't have much of an ogive to form so point forming pressure is reduced. That's why you can make most short jacketed pistol bullets in an O frame reloading press.
    As the ogive gets longer more pressure is required to form the ogive fully.
    The bullet does not fully bump out in diameter untill the ogive starts to fill out with core material to a point where it starts to see a smaller channel inside the ogive and exert some back pressure inside the jacket.
    If the jacket opening is large as in a lead tip bullet the bullet may not bump up fully untill some lead spews out to form the tip.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohica2xo View Post
    Country, you might want to do a bit more reading.

    Sleipner comes out ahead of Sverker 21 in all but two areas. Abrasive & Adhesive wear.

    Those two wear areas are of little importance when making tooling to work copper or lead.

    Gross cracking & plastic deformation are very important for this kind of work, and Sleipner comes out ahead in both. It is more machinable, which can mean a better finish before lapping.

    I have cut up literally tons of tool steels in my career. I really like Sverker 21, it is great steel for many parts. But the Sleipner material is superior for forming & coining tools. I saw a 20% life increase in a tool that always cracks eventually.

    It works very well at 60Rc, and has a nice fine grain structure. This is not conjecture form reading a spec sheet, but practical experience. I make tools for a living.

    If you want to read the actual spec sheet:

    http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_sleipner_english.pdf

    About 10 pages in there is a comparison chart if you need a graphic representation.

    B.
    No , the thrust of my reply was in connection with K110 not Sverka 21.
    You stated that Sliepner was better than K110 in dimentional stability .
    That is not right.
    In Dimentional stability Udderhoml seems to say that Sleipner is slightly better than Sverka 21 but only slightly. Sliepner is not as good as Calmax . Calmax and Caldie is also better in resisting cracking.
    It does not help that they have the Sverker 21 data on the Sliepner link!

    Anyway that was not the issue.

    I can't find anything that shows that Sliepner is superior to K110 in dimention stability.
    Bohler K110 is just as good as Sliepner in dimentional stability as far as I am concerned . Not talking about any other properties . Just dimention stability.
    K110 is mentioned as having high dimentional stability.
    Sliepner is described as a general purpose steel .
    The Bohler graph shows K110 as having the second highest stability.
    The Udderholm graph shows Sliepner as very slightly inferior to Calmax and Caldie . How you directly relate that I don't know , but nothing I can find indicates Sliepner is better than K110 in this one area.
    The next time I go to the steel merchant I will ask for some clarification .
    It appears to me that they are trying to avoid any direct comparisons between the two brands of steels .

    Maybe you should do some more reading .

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy
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    K110 / Sverker / D2. No comparison necessary, all the same material.

    I was not avoiding a comparison between manufacturers - Bohler does not make an analog to Sleipner.

    Remind me again, where did you get your degree in Metallurgy?

    B.

  7. #87
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    Hey gang,

    I have achieved success with my 6mm pointing die. It took me about 60 hours from start to finish but it worked out well. The bullets come out at .2436 on the pressure band at the base of the bullet. The ogive is a dual ogive that starts out at 2 and points up to about a 6. I made 50 bullets this afternoon to try out - can't wait to see what they will do in my bench gun.

    From start to finish on my bullet making process:

    1. Cast pure lead slugs about .45 inches in diameter about 2 inches long. Home made casting die.
    2. Extrude lead wire with a hand operated 13 ton hydrolic press at about .195 inches in diameter (pieces about 14 inches long). Home made extrusion dies and cylinder.
    3. Cut the lead wire into cores (about 57 grains). Home made core cutter and dies
    4. Squich (Squirt) cores (to about 55 grains). Home made squirt die and punches.
    5. Clean up cores with MEK (methyl ethyl keytone)and take all lube off them.
    6. Seat cores into jackets. Home made seating die and punches.
    7. Point up and clean off lube for final bullet. Finished bullet is 6mm 70 grains. Home made pointing die and punches.

    My shooting buddies think I am crazy as I spend more time making dies and making bullets than shooting them

    I have a few pictures to share of both bullets and dies that I have made (3 die set) but don't exactly know how to post them. When I click on the picture icon, it asks for a URL. I am presuming that this means that the pictures cannot be embedded in the post and they have to be on a server someplace. Suggestions?

    Martin

  8. #88
    Boolit Master
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    Martin they sound great, doing 6mm bullets is something I plan on in the future.

    To post your pics you have several options.

    The little paper clip will allow you to attatch a pic directly off your computer.

    You can also download pics in your "profile" page here. then you can use the "insert image" icon that asks for a web address.

    There are also photo hosting websites available (Photobucket is one example) that are free for a certain ammount of storage

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohica2xo View Post
    K110 / Sverker / D2. No comparison necessary, all the same material.

    I was not avoiding a comparison between manufacturers - Bohler does not make an analog to Sleipner.

    Remind me again, where did you get your degree in Metallurgy?

    B.
    You are still avoiding the issue . You stated that Sliepner was BETTER than K110 for dimentional stability . Which is ****.
    You have come into a good thread with bull and ruined a good thread.
    K110 is not exactly the same as Sverka 21 the chemical compositions are different.
    So its not exactly the same material according to the manufacturer.

  10. #90
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    Pictures by Martin:[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Wire Cutter (373 x 280).jpg 
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    Enjoy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dies (373 x 280).jpg   HorizDies (373 x 280).jpg   VertDies (373 x 280).jpg   Bullets (373 x 280).jpg   Mic (373 x 280).jpg  

    Scale (373 x 280).jpg   Press (373 x 280).jpg   Wire Extrusion (373 x 280).jpg  

  11. #91
    Boolit Mold
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    Martin,

    What is the purpose of the flat piece of metal held on top of your die with all thread? How does your home made core cutter work? I'd like to see some closeups of it. Your bullets look beautiful!! First class work.
    Last edited by Doug_F; 03-08-2010 at 10:56 PM.

  12. #92
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    Hey gang,

    This was my first attempt at posting pictures. The first one is a shot of my home made core cutter and a picture of my press in the background.

    The next three are pictures of my dies and die holders.

    The picture of the bullets are the 6mm bullets that I made. They are the first ones out of the die.

    The micrometer shows the finished diameter of .2346.

    The scale picture shows the final 70 grain bullet

    The picture of my press was taken during point forming.

    The last picture is extruding .190 lead wire with a hand jack.

    Martin

  13. #93
    Boolit Master
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    Wow Martin that is a great looking setup all around... I assume youre using something like Berger jackets?

    Im almost afraid to ask what steel you used for the dies

  14. #94
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    Doug F,

    The purpose of the flat piece of metel on the top of the press with the allthead is for extraction. It works the internal punch on the upstroke of the press for all three dies (squish die, core seating die and point forming die.

    The core cutter is pretty simple. It has a handle with one die slightly larger than the diameter of the lead wire and a fixed die in the top. When the lead wire is inserted between the two dies which are aligned and the handle is pushed, it slices off the core. I used stainless steel for the dies. It also has a bolt attached to the base that can be adjusted for different length cores. I will try and take a few more closeups but it is pretty simple.

    In terms of my efforts, thank you for the complement. The proof in the pudding is how they shoot. Don't know that yet.....

    The final bullets came out pretty good if I do say so myself. Not bad for a non professional with limited experience. In other words, if I can do this so can anybody else on this forum.

    Martin

  15. #95
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    ANeat,

    Yup, Berger jackets. I also have some others on order from Seirra but have not got them yet after 2 months backorder. Love them Berger jackets (been using them for years - top rate in my book)

    Not wanting to get in the other discussion about tool steel, I chose to use O-1. Seems like it is pretty good stuff.

    Martin

  16. #96
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    Nice; I have a set of 6mm dies ordered from RCE. When I get my hands on them we should swap some bullets. I got a 6mmbr bench gun as well.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin View Post
    ANeat,

    Yup, Berger jackets. I also have some others on order from Seirra but have not got them yet after 2 months backorder. Love them Berger jackets (been using them for years - top rate in my book)

    Not wanting to get in the other discussion about tool steel, I chose to use O-1. Seems like it is pretty good stuff.

    Martin
    Would you be coerced into making another set?

  18. #98
    Boolit Buddy jixxerbill's Avatar
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    outstanding work martin !!!!! very good indeed !!!! thanks for the pics also.....bill

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storydude View Post
    Would you be coerced into making another set?
    Great question because I too would like to enter the game.

  20. #100
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    Great job. You all keep me going. Martin, you could have a market because I would be Very Interested in a set.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check