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Thread: Home made dies

  1. #61
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    jixxerbill and country,

    Firtst thing - this is an open forum so please join in the discussion - that goes for anyone else. I appologize that this may have turned into a discussion between a couple of us. Please feel free to chime in anytime you wish.

    Second thing, I may have some experience and a lot of opinions but I am no expert. This is a hobby for me and anything I can do to help out others persuing the same is what this is all about.

    Jixxerbill, welcome. In reference to your post, D2 will work for swaging dies. When I did my research, I read that O-1 might be a little more abrasion resistant and holds it's diminision a little better than D2 so I decided to use O-1. My experience between D2 and O-1 is that they machine about the same.

    In reference to "D" reamer material, there appears to be two ways of you can go. The first is to use drill rod in the annealed state, machine the "D" reamer and then heat treat to Rockwell 60 or above. The second method that I use is to buy drill/reamer blanks which are already hardened above rockwell 60 and grind them to shape. The choice is up to you as both will work.

    In reference to lapping, there are a number of materials that can be used for lapps. Brass, aluminum, lead, copper etc. I found Brass and lead to be too soft myself. Aluminum (6061) seems to work pretty well and copper, I found to be great for finishing. It seems that you will have to play around with this and find out what you like.

    In reference to multiple heat treatments of the die, I don't think re-heat trating is either called for or desired. I heat treat once then do all my final lapping. If you do your heat trating correctly, the die will be hardened throughout. By the way, I heat treat to about Rockwell 62 then anneal back to Rockwell 50 by imersing the die in molten lead for about an hour. This makes the die less brittle and less prone to fracture (not that I have had a problem with cracking dies). In terms os re-heat treating, it is possible that the die may change dimensions during the heat treat and if this happens in the wrong way, you may be in trouble.

    My primary interest is in rifle dies (22, 243, 7mm, 30cal). I would think that pistol swaging dies would be a little easier to make in that they are not as small nor as deep.

    If I can help in any way, let me/us know.

    Martin

  2. #62
    Boolit Buddy
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    KTN,

    Have not heard from you in a while...... Progress on your dies?

    Last I heard, you were going to go through heat treatment. Did that work out for you? Are you now in the lapping stages?

    Martin

  3. #63
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTN View Post

    If everything goes as planned, I will heat treat these dies this weekend. Wish me luck.

    Kaj

    And of course it didn't go as planned.

    Little shop tip and reminder to all. Beware of sharp edges and burrs on machined parts. I cut my left thumb on burr, and it is difficult to work when you can't use your thumb. It's about healed now, so I will give it another try in near future.
    It will take all day to heat treat these dies. Hardening at 1020-1040 C and three temperings at 500-510 C, with two hour holding time.


    Honing point forming die to correct diameter and smooth finish, without distorting shape, is proving to be hardest part of this project. I'm no machinist or expert in tool and die making either, but I have got lots of good advice, tips and ideas from members here.
    Good news is, that my old shooting buddy, who is a toolmaker, offered to make me some custom reamers for this project. If I can figure correct diameter for that reamer, it will save a lot on honing and polishing time.



    Kaj

  4. #64
    Boolit Master

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    Kaj,

    I also seem to remember other thigns that are tough to do with on hand not usable!

  5. #65
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    KTN,

    Sorry to hear you cut your thumb on a burr. Anybody that has spent much time around machines eventually will end up in that position. Glad to hear you are mending rapidly.

    Thank you for the progress report. I was wondering when we would see pictures of your new dies and newly formed projectiles.

    Yes, I found that finishing the point forming die is the most time consuming part of the process and also (in my opinion) the most critical. I read on Corbin's site that it takes an experienced die maker upwards of 12 hours to compleate a point forming die. For us amateurs, I equate this to someplace between 40 and 80 hours which is pretty close to what it has taken me in the past.

    Lap on....

    Martin

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by manleyjt View Post
    Kaj,

    I also seem to remember other thigns that are tough to do with on hand not usable!

    Ya gotta learn to use your other hand

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin View Post
    jixxerbill and country,

    Firtst thing - this is an open forum so please join in the discussion - that goes for anyone else. I appologize that this may have turned into a discussion between a couple of us. Please feel free to chime in anytime you wish.

    Second thing, I may have some experience and a lot of opinions but I am no expert. This is a hobby for me and anything I can do to help out others persuing the same is what this is all about.

    Jixxerbill, welcome. In reference to your post, D2 will work for swaging dies. When I did my research, I read that O-1 might be a little more abrasion resistant and holds it's diminision a little better than D2 so I decided to use O-1. My experience between D2 and O-1 is that they machine about the same.

    In reference to "D" reamer material, there appears to be two ways of you can go. The first is to use drill rod in the annealed state, machine the "D" reamer and then heat treat to Rockwell 60 or above. The second method that I use is to buy drill/reamer blanks which are already hardened above rockwell 60 and grind them to shape. The choice is up to you as both will work.

    In reference to lapping, there are a number of materials that can be used for lapps. Brass, aluminum, lead, copper etc. I found Brass and lead to be too soft myself. Aluminum (6061) seems to work pretty well and copper, I found to be great for finishing. It seems that you will have to play around with this and find out what you like.

    In reference to multiple heat treatments of the die, I don't think re-heat trating is either called for or desired. I heat treat once then do all my final lapping. If you do your heat trating correctly, the die will be hardened throughout. By the way, I heat treat to about Rockwell 62 then anneal back to Rockwell 50 by imersing the die in molten lead for about an hour. This makes the die less brittle and less prone to fracture (not that I have had a problem with cracking dies). In terms os re-heat treating, it is possible that the die may change dimensions during the heat treat and if this happens in the wrong way, you may be in trouble.

    My primary interest is in rifle dies (22, 243, 7mm, 30cal). I would think that pistol swaging dies would be a little easier to make in that they are not as small nor as deep.

    If I can help in any way, let me/us know.

    Martin
    From my research I feel that Bohler K110 is slightly more dimentionly stable during heat treating than O1 oil hardening steels. Thats why I chose it in the first place.
    Both will work for the die body.
    Ok so you are saying that HSS drill rod in the annealed state is better for the reamer.
    I am lucky in as much as I have fully functioning die sets to make bullets with.
    Die making is just so I can replace worn dies in the future and to give me an extra interest and something to make.
    For me I don't rush into a project. I gather intel from lots of people and sift through it looking for techniques that make sense to me .
    I enter all those tips that seem to fit with what I want to do into a document and mull over it untill I have a mind picture of what I am going to do .
    This helps greatly to achieve a workable result.
    So far 90% of my projects have resulted in workable systems with a minimum of broken tooling and material waste .
    However a point forming die is a precision job and the margin for error is small.
    The main issue is the match of the core seater diameter to the point former diameter and the subsequent match of the resulting bullet diameter to the barrel groove diameter.
    My plan so far but subject to change at any time as info rolls in. Is to have my core seater produce a core seated jacket at .001 to .002 under the final bullet diameter. Thats done.
    Then final bullet diameter will be either dead on groove diameter or maybe a fraction under to allow some wearing in of the die surface later .
    Bullets can swell out to fill the bore under gass pressure a very small amount but you don't want it swaging down in the bore because when it exits the bore the jacket can pop out a small amount leaving a loose core.
    Bore dimentions vary quite a bit from barrel to barrel. So far my commercial Corbin 308 dies produce a bullet so close to .308 that I can't measure the difference. I am aiming for bang on .308 or a c hair under .
    What do you think?
    Last edited by Country; 03-04-2010 at 09:14 PM.

  8. #68
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    I don't know if this is the rule but I know I have heard the Corbins and Blackmon talk about the finish seated core being only .0002" less than final bullet diameter. Now this was for .224 bullets and they told me that seated cores should come out of their dies at .2235"- .2238". Then the point forming die would finish the bullet up to .224".

    I am no expert in die or metal working so just relaying what I have heard.

  9. #69
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    Kaj:

    Yup, gotta watch those burrs... I cut a tendon on one once.

    You should have good access to Uddeholm steels. They have a newer steel called "Sleipner" which is great material for this kind of die. A big improvement over Sverker 21 or K110 - either of which is considered D2 in the US.

    Sleipner has better resistance to cracking, among other things. Great compressive strength, and a dual temper @ 550c will leave you at 60 Rc - with little or no retained austenite. It is actually more resistant to plastic deformation than K110

    Dimensional stability is better than D2 or K110 too. I have been making some parts out of it and have been pleased with it for this type of application.

    Steels of this type should be double tempered for best stability. For drawing temps below 500c, sub-zero treatment is recomended.

    B.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIBULLETS View Post
    I don't know if this is the rule but I know I have heard the Corbins and Blackmon talk about the finish seated core being only .0002" less than final bullet diameter. Now this was for .224 bullets and they told me that seated cores should come out of their dies at .2235"- .2238". Then the point forming die would finish the bullet up to .224".

    I am no expert in die or metal working so just relaying what I have heard.
    .0002 under final diameter would work but it would leave nothing for wear in the core seating die. As soon as the die looses the .0002 it is already a bad match. I rekon they do this so the die wears out quicker. Or it's just bull.
    I have found that .001 to .002 less than the final bullet diameter still works fine for the core seater and gives a longer die life .
    In the majority of cases where dies are experiencing hard ejection after years of use it is the core seater that is worn out or expanded not so much the point former and now I know why.
    Anyway .0002 is an unrealistic tolerance for most amatures to aim for anyway.
    .001 is way easier for me to obtain accurately.
    Try measuring .0002 consistantly at different temps and with an elcheapo mic !

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohica2xo View Post
    Kaj:

    Yup, gotta watch those burrs... I cut a tendon on one once.

    You should have good access to Uddeholm steels. They have a newer steel called "Sleipner" which is great material for this kind of die. A big improvement over Sverker 21 or K110 - either of which is considered D2 in the US.

    Sleipner has better resistance to cracking, among other things. Great compressive strength, and a dual temper @ 550c will leave you at 60 Rc - with little or no retained austenite. It is actually more resistant to plastic deformation than K110

    Dimensional stability is better than D2 or K110 too. I have been making some parts out of it and have been pleased with it for this type of application.

    Steels of this type should be double tempered for best stability. For drawing temps below 500c, sub-zero treatment is recomended.

    B.
    According to Uddeholms specs Sleipner is about the same stability as Calmax and Arnie an (01 type steel) Sverker 21 gets a beter wrap for stability .
    Bohler K110 is a D2 type steel and superier to Arnie 01 in stability so I cant see how Sleipner is better than K110 in that area. It may have other properties that make it more suitable for you but it's not more dimentionly stable after heat treat than K110 as far as I can see.

    K110
    EN No (W-Nr) 1.2379, AISI D2
    Description:- Dimensionally stable High Carbon High Chrome steel featuring excellent toughness.
    Size Range:- Rd 14.5mm - 400mm, Fl 100mmx6mm - 600mmx300mm, Sq 20mm - 360mm, Sht 2000x1000x1.5mm - 2000x1000x80mm, H.B 140/76mm - 370/218mm

    Sleipner
    Description:- Sleipner is a general purpose steel for cold work tooling. It has a mixed wear profile and a good resistance to chipping.
    Size Range:- Sq 254mm Fl 1030x32mm - 1030x54mm

    They don't even mention dimentional stability for Sleipner although it is reasonable in this regard but it's not better than k110.
    Last edited by Country; 03-05-2010 at 08:28 AM.

  12. #72
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin View Post
    this is an open forum so please join in the discussion - that goes for anyone else. I appologize that this may have turned into a discussion between a couple of us. Please feel free to chime in anytime you wish.
    Wish I could contribute to this discussion but I'm in the very early learning stage. However, I'm getting smarter from reading the posts in this thread and I hope y'all experts will keep this thing going. Fascinating stuff!! Thanks for sharing this info in an open discussion rather than exchanging emails.

  13. #73
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Martin,

    I USUALLY cut my fingers at work . After 20+ years of sheetmetal working my hands are covered with scars .


    Bohica2xo,

    those burrs can surely surprise with their sharpness.
    Thanks for material info. I need to study more on materials.


    Doug_F,

    reason why I started this thread, was to get everyone interested in die making to take part and share ideas, tips and experiences in die making. Feel free to join in and ask questions, you never know where answers leads us.


    I'll take some pictures of dies and post them later. Right now i need to go and make few more little bits and pieces for these dies and ejector.



    Kaj

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Country View Post
    According to Uddeholms specs Sleipner is about the same stability as Calmax and Arnie an (01 type steel) Sverker 21 gets a beter wrap for stability .
    Bohler K110 is a D2 type steel and superier to Arnie 01 in stability so I cant see how Sleipner is better than K110 in that area. It may have other properties that make it more suitable for you but it's not more dimentionly stable after heat treat than K110 as far as I can see.

    K110
    EN No (W-Nr) 1.2379, AISI D2
    Description:- Dimensionally stable High Carbon High Chrome steel featuring excellent toughness.
    Size Range:- Rd 14.5mm - 400mm, Fl 100mmx6mm - 600mmx300mm, Sq 20mm - 360mm, Sht 2000x1000x1.5mm - 2000x1000x80mm, H.B 140/76mm - 370/218mm

    Sleipner
    Description:- Sleipner is a general purpose steel for cold work tooling. It has a mixed wear profile and a good resistance to chipping.
    Size Range:- Sq 254mm Fl 1030x32mm - 1030x54mm

    They don't even mention dimentional stability for Sleipner although it is reasonable in this regard but it's not better than k110.

    Country, you might want to do a bit more reading.

    Sleipner comes out ahead of Sverker 21 in all but two areas. Abrasive & Adhesive wear.

    Those two wear areas are of little importance when making tooling to work copper or lead.

    Gross cracking & plastic deformation are very important for this kind of work, and Sleipner comes out ahead in both. It is more machinable, which can mean a better finish before lapping.

    I have cut up literally tons of tool steels in my career. I really like Sverker 21, it is great steel for many parts. But the Sleipner material is superior for forming & coining tools. I saw a 20% life increase in a tool that always cracks eventually.

    It works very well at 60Rc, and has a nice fine grain structure. This is not conjecture form reading a spec sheet, but practical experience. I make tools for a living.

    If you want to read the actual spec sheet:

    http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_sleipner_english.pdf

    About 10 pages in there is a comparison chart if you need a graphic representation.

    B.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master
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    Bohica I was reading Ted Smiths stuff on die making and he spoke very highly of GraphMo or O6.
    I was wanting to try that but after a quick look it doesent seem as readily available as say O1 (which is what Im going to play with for now)

    Where does a person get O6?

  16. #76
    Boolit Man
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    http://www.peerlesssteel.com/productlist/toolsteel/

    They list graph-mo (06) tool steel

  17. #77
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    Mr. Neat:

    AISI 0-6 is decent material. It is popular for it's ease in heat treating. If you want some , Diehl usually stocks it:

    http://www.diehlsteel.com/o6.aspx

    Personally I prefer to use E52100 for applications I would use 0-6 in, especially for punches. It has a bit more chromium. E52100 can be water quenched, which is easier than a bucket of oil...

    B.

  18. #78
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Few more pictures

    Core swaging die on top of stroke, lead bleeding out. That collar around die is to adjust die height from core seat/point forming die to core swaging die, without moving lockring.



    Swaged core ejected. Collar around ram is ejector.



    Ejector pictures





    From left. Cores cut from lead wire, exess lead bleeded out and swaged cores. Everyone of these cores weight exactly 33.0 grains, swaged with slow count to five



    Core swage die on top of stroke. Collar removed and die adjusted lower.



    Jacket with seated core ejected.


    Jacket with seated core going to point forming die. Ejector pin not finished yet, need to push bullet out by hand.



    From start to finished bullet



    Dies, still missing some parts, like ejectorpin from point former, base punch from core seater some lock rings and set screws





    Kaj

  19. #79
    Boolit Buddy Daywalker's Avatar
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    great photos and great work on the dies...

  20. #80
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    Very nice Kaj.

    Thanks for the info on the O6 and E52100 B.

    Ill look into that. I think ease of heat treat may end up being a big point with me If I end up using a torch and a temp stick.

    I think most of the subtle differences in the various tool steels are kind of a moot point in this application.


    Just my un-educated opinion

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check