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Thread: Home made dies

  1. #41
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    manleyjt,

    Whatever I have learned along the way, I am willing to share. I appreciate the discusion as there are others attempting to do the same thing that I am trying to do.

    In regards to a short drilled ejection hole section for the internal punch on the inside of the point forming die, I had not considered that and it does make sense. Although, I would hate to do all the reaming and then come back to finish the ejection hole and then have a problem (like a broken drill bit). I have been using aircraft drill bits that are a little longer than standard drill bits in order to get the 1.625 length. I also built an adaptor (1/2 inch in diamater for the near 1/16 inch drill bit that allows me to chuck the 1/16 inch drill bit securely. The tip of this can reach inside the .236 hole in the die - works pretty slick and is secured with two 4x40 set screws to hold drill bit.

    In regards to two dies, I understand what you are saying. My interest is in turning out bench rest quality bullets and mine are open tipped. The open tipped bullets move the center of gravity back towards the base a little.

    I have been interested in making my own dies for a while now but have just got around to it this winter as a winter project. My setup is rather modist with a small 6 x 24 hobby lathe and a 9 X 48 South Bend lathe. I also have a 1930's vertical mill. I spent my formative years (while going through high school and college) working in a machine shop near Detroit but never anything in the tool and die world.

    Question: Is the 2nd edition of the Die design handbook worth the money and the read? Seems like alot of my die searches have resulted in dies for punch presses.

    I have a lot of ideas on things that I would like to try and do with forming dies. This is all fun stuff for me.

    Martin

  2. #42
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    Unless your shop is temperature controlled and maintained at 68* F you will not be able to hold .0001'' tolerance, that is how Sierra Bullets runs their tool and die shop to get the repeatability that they are famous for.
    Nice goal but .0005'' is about as close as a home shop is going to achieve.

  3. #43
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    Great discussion guys, Ive been studying Ted Smiths wrightup on dies. I was wondering if there is any preference to steel selection of if its one of those situations where you just pick one and learn to work with it??

    I noticed Ted Smith recommended Graph-Mo, which is O6 for his die bodies and stressproof for his punches.

    O6 seems like its pretty difficult to get a hold of so is there any other "prefered" choice.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    Unless your shop is temperature controlled and maintained at 68* F you will not be able to hold .0001'' tolerance, that is how Sierra Bullets runs their tool and die shop to get the repeatability that they are famous for.
    Nice goal but .0005'' is about as close as a home shop is going to achieve.

    Sure you can, Its the change in temp that can throw you off if you trying to hold a real tight tolerence.

    If its 40 degrees one day and 110 another there may be a measurable difference, but something the size of a bullet die there wont be much change.

    Plus for a bullet die somewhere between .2230 and .2240 (for example) will get you a good bullet

  5. #45
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    ANeat,

    The steel that I am using is O-1. It seems to machine easily and is easily heat treated. It is abrasion resistant and does not change much in dimension when heat treated. It also finishes well.

    My experience is that I machine to within a few thousands to final size and then heat treat. I bring the piece up to cherry red with a torch and then quench in 20 weight oil (no additives in the oil). At this point the die is about Rockwell 60 and I anneal back to about Rockwell 45 imersing the die in molten lead for an hour (lead casting pot).

    In reference to "Deltaenterprises" comment about not being able to hold less than .0005, I think that this is up for intrepretation. If he is talking about run out on a machine, I would agree. My experience is that I can get down to about .0002 (which is pretty close to the tollerence that I can measure) on punches while polishing them. I would also agree with the .0005 if he is talking about holes in dies. It takes me a lot of time and effort to do much better than that.

    Martin

  6. #46
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    Martin,

    that ejector pin hole throught die is the reason why I made these dies from short sections with extensions. That piece of K110 is 1.19" long and my 0.059" drill bit is only 1.49" long. First I drilled starting hole with center drill, step drilled from largest hole 5.5mm =0.21" to smallest 2.5mm =0.098" and after that, there was only about 0.25" to drill throught with 0.059" bit, with lots of cutting oil and time.
    For me this is also a hobby and challenge, if I can make these dies. I do have Corbin die set to make .224" bullets from .22 RF cases, but I just wanted to see if I can make these dies myself. And there is more calibers I want to try, like that .40" cal bullet from 9mm brass.
    For materials I chose Böhler K110 air hardening steel (D-2, I think, on your steels). It feels softer in it's annealed condition to machine than O-1 and being air hardening, it should be easier to harden without warping than oil hardening. If everything goes as planned, I will heat treat these dies this weekend. Wish me luck.

    Kaj
    Last edited by KTN; 02-19-2010 at 04:20 PM.

  7. #47
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    KTN,

    I understand what you are saying about short die sections. This will work well for shorter bullets (like .223) but when you get to larger calibers, I think your going to want to have longer dies.

    I also have some .224 dies that were passed down from my father. I have been using them to make 45, 50, 52, and 55 grain bench rest bullets. The dies that I have been making are modeled off these dies that my father has given me. He does not remember where he got them but I am sure that they were not produced commercially.

    I think that your K110 will work great for your dies and will suit you well. What are you using to heat treat them with. I found that using a propane torch is a streatch with 3/4 OD dies. The first time I tried this, I could not get enough heat and did not get good hardening. The second time, I used two torches and it worked okay. The third time, I switched to oxyacetelene and that worked great but had to be careful not to overheat. My inclenation is that all that is really necessary is to heat treat the inside hole where the copper or brass in your case comes in contact with the die. I would also think that there would be an advantage if the inside hole was heat treated that the remainder of the die could be softer and would be less prone to fracture.

    In any event, best of luck to you. Let us know how things trun out.

    Martin

  8. #48
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    What I have noticed is that a lot of hobbie lathes have spindle speeds that are a bit too slow for using small diameter drills. Once you get down to the size drill of an ejection pin in Corbin M type dies then you need 2500 rpm . My lathe has 2000 rpm top speed but running at 2000 is a bit scary at times.
    What I am going to try is to drill the first step hole for the ogive reamer then using the longest small drill I can find drill as much as I can into the same hole center . Stop as soon as I feel the first chips grabbing . Then reverse the die in the chuck puting it back in the same radial position in the jaws.
    Then drill a slightly larger hole than the ejection pin hole for some of the remaining depth . Then continue drilling with the ejection pin diameter drill. That should result in only drilling about 1/4 in both directions with the actual ejection pin drill diameter . Pray that the holes line up . If they don't I will keep deepening the top hole until it meets the ejection pin hole from the cavity and then the difference will be removed by the larger diameter . Then hope that the pin does not slop about during ejection force.
    The bad spot is going to be when the small drill breaks through into the other direction hole , it could break.
    If it fails come up with some other dumb plan.
    Anyway I have plenty of K110 bar to practice with.
    Last edited by Country; 02-19-2010 at 06:53 PM.

  9. #49
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    Country,

    You are correct that the spindle speeds have to be higher the samller the hole being drilled. I am fairly sure that this is the reason that I have broken drill bits in the past. One of the things that I have noticed is that not all drill bits are created the same. The "higher quality" drill bits seem to be made here in the US. For my money and time, I use only the best stuff I can get my hands on.

    I have made a number of squirt dies and do a 3 hole drilling pattern for the exit holes. I step drill with .0625 (a little more than 1/4 inch deep) down to .031 the final .075 inches into the die. I have yet to break one of these 1/32 inch drill bits but I am turning them as fast as I can in my drill press. I can see them flex but they hold up.

    Your idea of using a larger hole where the ejection pin enters the die makes sense as long as you have enough surface area to keep the ejection pin streight in the die. I would think that you would want at least a 1/4 inch of surface just slightly larger than the ejection pin and more if you can get it.

    You mention that you have plenty of K110 bar to practice on. Last fall, I purchased a 12 foot bar of 3/4 inch O-1 for a local distributor and had to cut it in half to get it home. I think I have used maybe a foot of it. My assessment is that the material for making the dies is dirt cheap. What you are paying for in commercial dies is 1) the cost of machines, buildings, measuring equipment, time, and experience with time probably being the largest cost. So discounting the labor factor because this is a hobby, this bullet die making is actually a fairly cheap thing to do. I would say that I have about 2 dollars worth the materials in each die but I would not sell one for a million dollars... ok, maybe a million.

    On another related topic, I had an idea last night.... I am in the middle of doing a couple of point forming dies for .243. I have these dies roughed/reamed out within about .006 of the finished dimension. My normal course of action would be to create an inverse cutter for the ogive curvature and use it to make a series (10 or more) laps out of brass. Each lap because they were formed with the same cutter would be the same. I would then use these laps with different lapping compound from rough (220 grit) down to fine (8000 grit) to achieve the final dimensions. What would happen if instead of making the inverse cutter and making brass lapps if a person were to take several finished bullets (such as one that is a proven performer) and attache them to an arbor of smaller dimension than the bullet then file/sand/polish off a thousands or two and use these as laps? Could one then replicate the proven performer bullet almost exactly?

    Martin

  10. #50
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    Martin,
    My plan for the ogive shape is to make an convex turning jig that is adjustable for different size radii so the ogive size can be calculated and then the tool point set a specific radius distance from the lathe center.
    Then reamers and lapps can be turned excatly the same ogive shape .
    This is the theory anyway.
    The actual design of the jig is still up in the air .
    However my first rough idea is a platform that locks onto the tool post shaft.
    Part of that is a flat plate that supports a swivel lever that moves back and forth on the plate or possibly replaces the top slide.
    The levers swivel axis is perpendicular to the center of the lathe but can be moved under and behind the lathe center .
    On the lever shaft a steped up tool holder that takes a carbide insert.
    The tool holder can slide back and forth along the swivel lever and be locked in place at any radius from the levers center back out .

    The max amount of swing from the lever axis and cutting tool adjustment to the cutting point would need to be 3.5 " to allow up to an 11 caliber ogive on a .308.
    When the lever is moved back and forth on it's pivot point the carbide insert will cut the radius that is set.
    I am a long way from achieving this at the moment as the point former is the harder one to make .
    I have been asking questions and have come up with this advice for drilling the ejection pin hole .

    " D2 (K110) should drill ok with cobalt drills .

    Drill it from both ends, with an undersize drill, then finish drill thru
    from cavity end. Where the pin hole emerges in the cavity, some
    flaring may occur as you finish the die, and this raises hell with the point.
    The ej pin hole can be lapped later.
    Drill the back end in a lathe and
    the cavity end vertical in a mill to eliminate droop in a long bit. "

    I am not keen to move the die blank out of the lathe and have to recenter it in the mill ?
    Last edited by Country; 02-20-2010 at 09:37 PM.

  11. #51
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    Country,

    I think I understand what you are driving at in terms of a radus fixture for your lathe. My thought would be to find/make a gear with a bearing in the center of it and monut it horizontally on your tool post. Then, do a rack and pinion deal with the pinion gear being turned by a hand wheel of some kind. The radius of the cut could then be adjusted by how far from center the cutting bit is loacated. You could make mounts for the cutter in the gear for 6, 8, 10, 11, and 12 caliber settings. I am sure this is easier said than done.

    Yes, D2 drills pretty good with cobalt drills and also with sharp high speed drills. I would caution anyone to not use carbide drill bits this small. I have found them to be extreamely brittle and break easily. Cobalt is not nearly as bad and does hold an edge longer than high speed steel.

    Your comment about taking a die blank out of a lathe and trying to recenter it in a mill sounds to me like a "nearly impossible task". I would be more inclined to leave the die mounted in the lathe and get a longer drill bit to go all the way through from one direction. My experience in "loosing center" taught me a lesson in one scrapped die that I had a fair amount of time in.

    Some may disagree with this but I use 4 jaw chucks almost exclusively. I found that my 3 jaw chucks may be ok for rough work but they do not consistantly come back to the same point each time. When I am doing lapping operations, I have to remove the die from time to time and test/measure it. In a 3 jaw chuck the die can be as mush as .002 off center where the 4 jaw chuck, when backing off from only 2 of the jaws to remove the die, will recenter the die almost exactly when these 2 jaws are re-tightened. From this, you may be able to get away with being fairly close on your center if you use a 4 jaw chuck and reverse the die to drill from the other end. I like your idea of having a larger hold where the extractor pin enters the die as long as you have a fairly decent bearing surface for the pin on the inside of the die (3/8 inch or more).

    Martin

  12. #52
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    I agree with what you are saying about 3 jaw chucks.
    They are mainly designed to hold something untill it is totally finnished and then removed. However I have a fairly precision 3 jaw and it is quite accurate at the moment but as they wear they loose accuracy.
    A precision 6 jaw works good if you have the bucks.
    I have had some new thoughts on the method of drilling the ejection pin hole.
    It's a theory at the moment.
    What if I drilled the first step hole for the cavity and then use a neat fitting long center drill to start the ejection pin hole. Then using a long series cobalt drill finnish the ejection pin hole all the way through using peck drilling and a support collar that clamps on the outside of the die . The problem is getting coolant in.
    Then finnish step drilling and reaming cavity . Sound stupid or feasable.?

  13. #53
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    Country,

    I have been working on 6mm pointing dies the last couple of days. Generally, I make two at a time in case somthing gets messed up along the way. If nothing gets messed up, I end up with two good dies. Both of the dies that I am working on are a little over 1.6 inches long. This allows for the bullet length plus half again as much so that the bullet is formed and supported about .4 inches inside the die.

    Anyway, my method is to drill and ream about .8 inches up in the die to achieve about .237. This gives me a fair amount of room for final finish. I then step drill about .150 inches deeper with a 3/16 inch drill. It is at this point that I drill a .059 hole for the 1/16 inch extractor.

    I had to make a holder for the .059 drill since my drill chuck would only go down to .0625. The holder is a piece of mild steel 1/2 inch in diameter and about an inch long. I took a .059 drill and drilled a hole in the end and then drilled/tapped 4x40 cap screws about 1/8 inch back on both sides to hold the small drill. I also machined the front down to about .22 so that it would fit into the die. Bottom line is that I had no problems drilling the holes in both dies. My spindle speed is up around 1700 rpm and I used lots of oil removing the drill bit frequently at the end so I could clear the chips. These holes that I drilled are upwards to 1/2 inch deep to the end of the die. The last step is to ream the hole to .0625 so that it fits almost exactly for the extraction pin.

    I don't think you need to go to extream measures like what you describe. If you would like a holder and a couple of drills, let me know and I will send them to you.

    The final step in machining before removing the die, is to use a "D" reamer to form the ogive. The 1/16 inch hole helps keep the "D" reamer centered during this operation.

    I am at the point now that the die has to be rough finished. My method is to use the D reamer and mount it in the compound and use it as a cutter to form an inverse on a 1/2 inch diamater piece of drill rod. I carefully machine down the curve before hand and then use the D reamer as a cutter to get an exact match but inverse. When this is done I mill off half of the profile and then polish the serface. I now have a form to make multiple (6 to start with) lapps out of aluminum that have the same exact curvature. I did some a while ago out of brass but found that they were too soft form my liking - besides that, 6061 aluminum machines real easy.

    I worked on my laps most of today and began lapping my dies this evening. This is a long process and I will be "working on" this all next week at night after work. Right now I am lapping with 220 grit smoothing things out and have taken off the first couple of thousands of roughness and the dies are beginning to take shape.

    Martin

  14. #54
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    This is basicly what I have to do also. The die dimentions are fairly close also.
    The drill holder is a good idea and I think that will make for a much shorter drill bit and less flex .
    What I can't see is that the D reamer will follow the ejector pin hole.
    If the reamer is cutting on the sides of the step drilling hole then it is not going to change direction by just meeting the small diameter ejection pin hole if that hole is out of center .
    The way that you are doing it will most likely result in both holes being in center anyway so it should not be a problem.
    Thanks for the kind offer but I am using a bigger ejection pin of .068 anyway for 308 hunting bullets.

  15. #55
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    Country,

    You are correct that the "D" reamer will cut the corners of the step drilled hole at first. These step drilled holes should be centered with the main hole in that the main hole has a drill point for centering the step drills. As the "D" reamer advances into the hole, it will take the steps out.

    In reference to the ejector pin hole, when the tip of the "D" reamer encounters the ejector pin hole, it will follow the ejector pin hole which should also be centered. When I make my "D" reamers, I leave the end of the reamer at a point so that it follows the ejector hole.

    By the way, when I am done doing the machining, I take the die out of the lathe and do a cast of the internal die to see what I have accomplished. I have been using cerrosafe by Brownells (but I think other places sell somthing similar). I also make casts along the way as I am lapping the dies to determine progress. This works out fairly well but there are probably other ways of accomplishing the same thing like pressing lead into the die. What do you do?

    Martin

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    At this stage I have not made a point forming die. Only core swagers and core seating dies. The easy ones so far.
    The point former is way more work and I am not there yet.
    However once I get to that point of testing the ogive cavity I think once I get the cavity surface polished I would just swage a bullet and see what diameter and shape I get . If the diameter is a bit small then I would keep polishing and swaging bullets until it came up to diameter .
    Thats the other tricky part of making the point former . If the bullet diameter comes up before the correct surface finnish is produced the die is no good and may be a hard ejector.
    If the surface finnish comes up to correct finnish before the correct diameter bullet is produced then a lot more polishing is required to get the right diameter.
    The risk then is that the extra polishing can distort the ogive shape and affect the bullets ballistic performance.
    The secret is to know exactly how much meat to leave in the cavity that will polish out to the correct finnish right at the correct diameter.
    A secret that I don't acually know at the moment. However I found that .002 undersize for Bohler K110 D2 type steel on my core seater dies polished out quite easy to exact size and good smooth finnish .
    However I don't know if thats suitable to the point former ?
    The tolerance required may even vary with different hole sizes also.
    Thats too far ahead at the moment .

  17. #57
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    Country,

    Your comment about swaging bullets as an indicator is right on the money. The correct bullet size is ultimately the final desired result. I generally do bullets when I get down to the last thousands or so. Make a couple of bullets, measure, lap a little more, make a couple more bullets, meaure, lap a little more etc. until I reach final desired dimension.

    My experience with point forming dies is that .002 undersize based on reaming did not work out well for me. I found that a .004 or .005 margin worked out better. I agree with you that you can get away with .002 on a squirt die or a core seating die if you have a really good/sharp reamer. My fear with point forming dies is to run out of dimension prior to getting a polished finish. If this happens, I have a lot of work in the die that becomes scrap.

    Oh, by the way, I usually heat treat at the point where I am at about .002. My thought is that I don't want to heat treat when I am down too close to final dimension as the die material may change dimensions due to being heat treated.

    Martin

  18. #58
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    excuse me butting in here, im also making dies for bullet making and have made a set of dies to make jackets from tubing. i have not made a nose/piont forming die as of yet, i would like to make one for a 45 cal. bullet (pistol) not into the super accuracy thing as you are yet!! lol.. but just messing around with the die making thing at the moment... was just wondering if this would work---> using d2 steel for blank step drill it as much as i can then using something to make a d-reamer with and at the same time while lathe is set up, make some brass lapps that way the d reamer and lapps are the same. then i guess i need to heat treat the d-reamer and cut the die with it. after cutting the die do i heat treat it first then lap it, or lap some first then heat treat and lap again ?? thanks sorry so long...also what metal to use for the d-reamer. if this procedure is missing something please feel free to chime in here...im new as heck but want to learn. thanks ...bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by martin View Post
    Country,

    Your comment about swaging bullets as an indicator is right on the money. The correct bullet size is ultimately the final desired result. I generally do bullets when I get down to the last thousands or so. Make a couple of bullets, measure, lap a little more, make a couple more bullets, meaure, lap a little more etc. until I reach final desired dimension.

    My experience with point forming dies is that .002 undersize based on reaming did not work out well for me. I found that a .004 or .005 margin worked out better. I agree with you that you can get away with .002 on a squirt die or a core seating die if you have a really good/sharp reamer. My fear with point forming dies is to run out of dimension prior to getting a polished finish. If this happens, I have a lot of work in the die that becomes scrap.

    Oh, by the way, I usually heat treat at the point where I am at about .002. My thought is that I don't want to heat treat when I am down too close to final dimension as the die material may change dimensions due to being heat treated.

    Martin
    Ok Martin thanks for that tip on lapping allowance. I will make a note of .004 to .005 for the point former allowance and stop at .002 over bullet diameter for heat treat .
    Starting to get a good picture now of how to drill the ejection pin hole and what meat to leave in the die.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixxerbill View Post
    excuse me butting in here, im also making dies for bullet making and have made a set of dies to make jackets from tubing. i have not made a nose/piont forming die as of yet, i would like to make one for a 45 cal. bullet (pistol) not into the super accuracy thing as you are yet!! lol.. but just messing around with the die making thing at the moment... was just wondering if this would work---> using d2 steel for blank step drill it as much as i can then using something to make a d-reamer with and at the same time while lathe is set up, make some brass lapps that way the d reamer and lapps are the same. then i guess i need to heat treat the d-reamer and cut the die with it. after cutting the die do i heat treat it first then lap it, or lap some first then heat treat and lap again ?? thanks sorry so long...also what metal to use for the d-reamer. if this procedure is missing something please feel free to chime in here...im new as heck but want to learn. thanks ...bill
    You are welcome mate . I am going to just use the K110 D2 grade steel to make the reamers also . When it is heat treated it should cut unhardened D2 ok .
    Maybe Martin has a better idea but that is what I had planed anyway.
    However the more I learn the more I change my plans.
    If you read Martin's previous post he setts out very well the answer to your question on lapping and hardening steps.

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