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Thread: Home made dies

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Country,
    good info, keep it coming, I like history.
    History proves there is not much to invent these days, it has, most likely, been invented years ago and invented again.
    I'm happy to answer your questions.
    These dies will be mounted on RCBS Rock Chucker press.
    I try to make few more parts tomorrow, and post picture on how it mounts on press. It's so simple I've been kicking myself for a week for not realising it earlier.
    These dies fit inside normal 7/8" dies and on top of these thread base punches.
    More tomorrow with pictures, it will be lot easier for me to explain what I mean when you can see the pictures.
    As usual, sorry for my bad English, hope you can make some sense from it.


    Kaj

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTN View Post
    Country,
    good info, keep it coming, I like history.
    History proves there is not much to invent these days, it has, most likely, been invented years ago and invented again.
    I'm happy to answer your questions.
    These dies will be mounted on RCBS Rock Chucker press.
    I try to make few more parts tomorrow, and post picture on how it mounts on press. It's so simple I've been kicking myself for a week for not realising it earlier.
    These dies fit inside normal 7/8" dies and on top of these thread base punches.
    More tomorrow with pictures, it will be lot easier for me to explain what I mean when you can see the pictures.
    As usual, sorry for my bad English, hope you can make some sense from it.


    Kaj
    Your English is great I think your spelling is better than mine and I am English.
    However I am just an ex soldier and not well educated with words but I am well educated with weapons. They say the pen is mightier than the sword but they never mentioned guns.
    Looking forward to your pics it sounds very forward thinking.
    I love my Sako rifles and thank Finland for that. It's just a shame that the Italians own it now. I have been looking for some time for a forum with genuine bullet swagers and experimenters to talk to . I think this forum looks very promising .
    The casual inventer has little chance of getting rich nowadays . Big corporations just steal your idea modify it a bit or make it out of another material that you did not patent. Or China just straight out steals it.
    The only way is to work in complete secrecy and get the laywers to negotiate an agreement of confidentiallity with a penalty clause , with the prospective buyer or producer so that if you show it to them for consideration if they don't buy it , they can not reveal any of your work to anyone else or copy it.
    If they do you can sue them for breach of contract.
    However only well know inventors seem to be able to negotiate this kind of deal.
    Last edited by Country; 02-12-2010 at 10:19 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Country,

    In reading some items about and written by TED Smith of SAS in his words it was not a situation where he was bought out. There were bad feelings that come across in his writing.

    There is a set of instructions that I scanned for teh B&A dies in the old threads in this section. The small early pamphlet written by TED Smith of SAS was also given to me by a member here if I would share it, it is also available in the old threads.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    KTN,

    How does the ejection pin work on your design? Is it similar to the way Pat's gas check maker ejector works?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by manleyjt View Post
    Country,

    In reading some items about and written by TED Smith of SAS in his words it was not a situation where he was bought out. There were bad feelings that come across in his writing.

    There is a set of instructions that I scanned for teh B&A dies in the old threads in this section. The small early pamphlet written by TED Smith of SAS was also given to me by a member here if I would share it, it is also available in the old threads.
    I know what you are saying I have read the same things but It is hard to know exactly what happened . If Ted Smith had a gripe about someone stealing his ideas why did he not take it to court.
    Maybe he was not bought out as you say . Business dealings are never very public are they.
    I was led to believe he was in poor health and wanted to quite the business anyway.
    Some unsold SAS gear ended up in the hands of the Corbin brothers . Who knows how or why.
    Last edited by Country; 02-13-2010 at 01:22 AM.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

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    Country,

    I hear you. on the untold part. One never knows.

    The Corbins learned their trade from Ted. There is a direct lineage that can be traced. documentation is there. The thing we know is Ted is gone both physically and from the business. I had never been able to find patents in his name, but I did not try hard either. From what the old timers say he was free with his teaching and one hell of a guy in that he would help anyone. Not really a way to keep things secret and out of the hands of others. Really doesn't matter what happend as what we have now is what we have.

    I have an old SAS press that has dies that are not threaded. It uses dies that are held in with a ring in them and a set screw. The press looks like a mighty mite or silver. It is pretty intersting and I have been trying to find other old SAS items to go with it. But they seem to be scarce.

    but like all things swaging you have to be damn lucky and definitely in the right place at the right time. Or have buckets of money ready at hand.

  7. #27
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    manleyjt , I have an old SAS press and dies also but mine are threaded though .
    I am not sure when it was made . I bought it secondhand a very long time ago maybe around 19 72 .
    I also have later Corbin presses that are very similar.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Manleyjt,
    I improved ejector I made for my gas check tool. When I get it made i post picture of it.


    Few more die pictures.



    Dies in order they fit each other. Still some little bits that need to be done.



    Core swage die on top of stroke, bleed hole abobe pres top.



    Core swage die inside die body and base punch on top. I will drill hole to dies side to let lead out of core swage die.



    Core seating die on top of stroke.



    Core seating die inside die body with base punch.



    Kaj

  9. #29
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    I am getting the picture better now.
    Did you cut those external threads ? They are very neat .
    Are you using indexable carbide inserts or HSS tooling to cut your threads?
    Nice looking job indeed.
    The only thing I have noticed is the bleed hole in the core swager looks a bit big.
    Have you tested it?
    If the hole is too big for the lead hardness being used , the lead core may be exposed to insufficient pressure to really compress it right down properly.
    The core should come out looking smooth , fault and wrinkle free .
    Maybe you only have one hole and that would be the difference.
    Just a thought.

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Country,
    thank you for your kind words.
    All threads are cut with carbide inserts and by me.
    That bleed hole is also step drilled, it can be seen more clearly in first picture. Actual bleed hole is 1.5 mm (0.06") in diameter and it opens up to 3.26 mm to reduce friction. There is only one bleed hole at the moment. I will test it and, if needed, drill another before heat treating. Point forming die has same 1.5 mm hole through it and it bleeds soft lead quite easily.
    I just might have to make extension on that core swage die few millimeters higher, so that bleed hole clears locking ring on die body.


    Kaj

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTN View Post
    Country,
    thank you for your kind words.
    All threads are cut with carbide inserts and by me.
    That bleed hole is also step drilled, it can be seen more clearly in first picture. Actual bleed hole is 1.5 mm (0.06") in diameter and it opens up to 3.26 mm to reduce friction. There is only one bleed hole at the moment. I will test it and, if needed, drill another before heat treating. Point forming die has same 1.5 mm hole through it and it bleeds soft lead quite easily.
    I just might have to make extension on that core swage die few millimeters higher, so that bleed hole clears locking ring on die body.


    Kaj
    Ok I am with you on that. Start with one bleed hole and add an extra if required.
    Good plan.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy
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    KTN,

    Great looking dies - how much time do you have in making them?

    I am in the process of making a set of 6mm dies and I have the first two done and successfully working (Core Squich Die and Core Seating die). The final die (Point forming die) has given me a lot of challenges. I have made a couple of attempts without success.

    My method is such that I drill and ream to .236, step drill for the ogive and then ream the ogive with a "D" reamer. I then drill the extraction hole (a little smaller than .059) and then finish the hole with a .0625 reamer. I am using O1 oil harding steel. After I do all this, I then heat treat the die and final finishing.

    The first attempt resulted in a broken drill bit when I drilled the extraction hole. No way out of this so scrapped it. The second was better but the hole was rough and did not finish out at .244 so scrapped it. I am curently on my third attempt and have a few questions:

    1. How did you finish the ogive in your die? Did you produce a series of laps and then change laps/grit size until you got a smooth finish?
    2. Are you using diamond or silicon carbide as an abrasive? Which would you think is better?
    3. How did you make a smooth transistion from the shank of the bullet in your die to the ogive? This has been a challenge not to have a step in the die
    4. What resources (literature/documentation) did you read prior to making your dies or did you just teach yourself? Suggestions?
    5. I noticed that you are making lead samples of the inside of your point forming die. Do you make these and measure them to get to determine dimensions? If so, how much shrinkage do you get or give yourself in the lead when measured?
    6. Other suggestions you can offer in doing a blind hole for the point forming die?

    Thank You,

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy KTN's Avatar
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    Martin,

    Welcome to the forum.
    I haven't counted hours spend on making these dies, but it's a lot.

    My progress has been very much same with yours, as de rimming, core swage and core seat dies were quite easy to make. Point forming die is the real test.
    My method of doing it is step drilling most of material out, and reaming to shape and close to diameter with four flute reamer I made from O-1 tool steel.

    1. Ogive is not finished yet, but I will use lead laps and grit to do it.
    2. I'm using silicon carbide. I think diamond would be better but don't have it.
    3. Reamer took care of that, and lapping smoothed the rest.
    4. This forum and Corbin website are my resources for this project.
    5. Those samples are lead wire swaged in die to measure it and to be used as laps. These are soft lead so there should not be much spring back with these.
    6. D-reamer works fine with bigger diameters but with .224" and .243" it's better to use more rigid tools.

    Ask questions, there are many real machinists on this board who can give you better answers than me. For me, failure is always an option. But it will be only part of my learning curve.


    Kaj

  14. #34
    Boolit Master

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    From waht I have read, I have not done it yet so take it for what it is worth. You might try to drill the ejection pin hole first and then the step drill, and final form using d reamer.

    Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will respond.

  15. #35
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    I am thinking of the same problems at the moment . I have made core swage and core seat dies but not a point former yet.
    My thinking is that I can't find small drills long enough to drill right through the die in one pass.
    So I think I will have to drill one end short of the ogive shape with a larger drill the first step drill , then reverse the die in the chuck and drill the ejection pin hole using peck drilling and plenty of coolant.
    Hope that it comes out in the center of the first step drill hole.
    Then reverse it again and continue step drilling and reaming.
    Sounds problematic I know.
    To drill the full length of a die with a small diameter drill is a deep hole drilling situation prone to drill breakage .

    I know I have to make a convex profiling jig for my lathe to machine the ogive shape on reamers . I am working on that.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTN View Post
    1. Ogive is not finished yet, but I will use lead laps and grit to do it.
    2. I'm using silicon carbide. I think diamond would be better but don't have it.
    Kaj
    .............Kaj, what you should use depends on how close to finish size you are. Both diamond and silicone carbide have their positives and negatives. A positive for diamond if you have a couple thousandths to remove, is that diamond doesn't break down but continues to cut. Plus you can cut hardened steel should a hardened die need to be opened.

    On the other hand silicone carbide does break down, plus it's cheap! For a final polish using 1500 grit becomes 2000 and then finer fairly quickly. That's a good thing if you're trying to take out that last tenth or so.

    ...............Buckshot
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  17. #37
    Boolit Master


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    Amen on the long small diameter holes being hard to drill. I made a derimming die for 22 mag brass. The hole did not come out on the center on the other end. I was using cheap chicom drill bits that drill oversized holes. I believe they are not sharpened properly and that is a big part of the problem. An improperly sharpened drill bit can drill off center making an oversized hole and I would imagine cause the drill bit to walk off center.
    Any advice on drilling long deep holes? I used a center drill to start the hole andwas pecking and using thread cutting oil for coolant. I am using a new 4 jaw chuck that has not been crashed with the part clocked in within .0005''.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master

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    I think Buckshot can help with how he made the dies he did. The thru hole appears to be one of the toughest issues based on the experiences of others that i have been able to read.

    I am still trying to gather up tooling to even get started on a project for making dies. So I am very interested in what you all can share.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy
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    KTN et. al,

    Thank you for the great responses to my inquiry.

    I must admit that I am not a professional machinist and that most of what I have learned is by trial and error while reading anything and everything I can get my hands on in the way of technical information. It is my belief that this is the way that several successfully swaging die makers got started as there is not much published information on how to make the dies that I can find especially on the point forming die.

    There are several things that I have read along the way that caught my attention:

    1. The point forming die must be absolutely mirror smooth (polished) to get good extraction.
    2. There is a strong relationship between the core seat die and the point forming die in that the core seat die must be .0002 inches smaller than the point forming die to get good final formed dimensions from the point forming die without a large pressure band on the base of the bullet. In other words, too large a difference and you have problems and too small a difference and you have problems.
    3. The finished dimensions of the point forming die must be slightly larger than then final bullet dimensions (by .0003 to .0005 inches) so as to provide spring back when the bullet is formed.
    4. There is a tendency when finishing dies (and I can attest to this) to have a slight taper develop in the die from the use of laps. It is important to minimize this taper especially in the point forming die or it will produce a tapered finished bullet.

    I don’t know about you guys, but measurement to these accuracies is impossible for me to do directly as I don’t have any expensive air gages. The only way that I can do this is by trial and error. I can measure outside dimensions directly down to .0001 but cannot measure inside dimensions ¾ of an inch inside the die. What I have been doing is lap a little, make a few bullets, measure, and lap some more being careful not to over do the lapping as it is difficult to put material back in the die .

    I have a variety of bullets that are both commercial and custom and have measured them. It is surprising that the final dimensions will vary between .2430 and .2440 between manufacturers. What I am attempting to achieve is .2438. I also have seen the same thing with .223 bullets that range from .2230 to .2240.

    It appears that your dies are similar to the SAS design as described in their documentation. The dies that I am working on are slightly different in that I machined a die holder to fit into the 7/8 x 14 threaded insert of my modified (shortened) ram RCBS press. The core goes into the die from the bottom between the ram and the die with the external punch fit into the ram. The internal punch is held captive in the die holder along with the die. Threaded rods are connected to the ram which then go to a bar at the top which is used for forcing the internal punch down on the upstroke of the RCBS handle for extraction. In other words, align core with die, pull handle down, squirt core, pull handle back up to extract finished core from the bottom of the die. The core seat is done with the base of the jacket pointed up inside the seating die with the same arrangement as the core forming die with the external punch set in the ram. The pointing die is such that the jacket with core is pointed up (base on the external punch). The extraction is a 1/16 inch drill rod about 2 inches long inserted into an internal punch.

    In reference to manleyjt’s and Country’s comments about drilling the extraction pin hole first, this is a very difficult if not impossible thing to do with a near 1/16 inch drill bit. The dies that I am making are about 1.625 inches in length. From what I have read, it is recommended that holes not be drilled longer than about 3 times the diameter of the drill without specialized equipment. I also learned (the hard way) that turning the die around and drilling from the opposed end will result in a loss of center even when being vary careful while using a 4 jaw chuck and dial indicator. I did this and was about .002 off center (frustrating). I have learned that once I start on a die, it does not come out of the chuck until all of the drilling and reaming is done.

    The bottom line in all of this is that I view all of this as a series of challenges and learning experiences. Sure, I could go out and buy dies, presses, etc. to make bullets but by making the dies myself I not only learned from the process but also have a sense of accomplishment. For me this is a hobby that keeps me occupied and out of trouble. I could think of a lot of other things that would not be as rewarding 

    Martin

  20. #40
    Boolit Master

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    martin,

    Thanks for adding to the discussion. I too have read that one should not remove the die once started. I also read that one can drill a shallow pilot hole to help in getting the d reamer to cut and to keep a short section drilled in die concentric for the internal punch to eject. Then you can run the long thru hole from the short section thru the die. It appears that from reading ( have been trying to get through 2nd edition of Die design handbook) that the actual thru hole is not a big concern, just the short section .

    also need to mention that there are two dies for point forming. the die that swages (the point former), and the die that cleans up the formed lead tip (if you have one) and is a lead tip forming die.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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