9.3x72R

[AkMike]

I just checked and the fresh sized brass lacks .170" from fully seating. Yet the chamber shows the full length of 2.83" that the brass has.
I think that simply reaming the chambers out will clean up the tight spot and let me shoot it.

[AkMike]

Here are some pics of the rifle.

[AkMike]

A call to 4D Reamer Rentals today confirmed that they have seen this 2 taper chamber before. They said that it's a quick easy clean up with a hand reamer. Needless to say it's on the way!
It'll be nice to get this old girl shooting after several years of me owning it and who knows when the last time it was shot . From looking at the numbers on it, I'd say it was built in 1901. Right?

[Cheshire Dave]

That is a beauty. I can see I would need a bib when looking over your gun collection.
Let us know how the old girl shoots.

[AkMike]

Just an update/FYI for Hubertus and who ever else might stumble on this someday. After talking to Dave at CH4D dies down in Ohio today he said that this mystery chambering I had was probably a 9.3X72/360. From the rim forward there is a different taper for uaround 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch then a straight taper to the end. Possible this is for a very old version that was a coiled / foil cartridge.
I rechambered it to the standard version so as far as I'm concerned... Case closed!

[Hubertus]

AkMike,

Thanks for the update - this is interesting to know.
Did you already have the chance to shoot it with the new chambering?

As for the info on CR17's and PFJC's Drilling I am still waiting for the reply of the Gentleman with the Museum. I suppose he is really busy since he is the only authority they have in this regard. I will keep you posted.

Hubertus

[Hubertus]

PFJC and cr17 I got the answer from the conservator. He is taking it very serious; of course it’s his job and passion. He works at the museum, Suhl.

I will put your pics in the thread to make it easier to understand and read for the others. The description is formal and it is a translation of the actual mail I received (well as close as I could translate it).

OK, are you ready?

PFJC’s Drilling:



“…The weapon presented via photographs is a Hammerless Drilling with Roux breech, manufactured by the company Meffert at Suhl around 1913. Unfortunately it was refurbished but not according to it’s age/manufacturing time. (Attached 2 photos of the original catalogue).




Justification:
The Stock is reconditioned and the fitting at the bascule was changed, the Form of the forearm does not fit into manufacturing time but fits present time.

It is a good contemporary witness and of course nice rifle, but not a special collector item.
The insurable value is about 400 Euro (Hubertus: currently $544).

Markings:

TREFF Model
8,7x72 Bore diameter, following old proof law of 1891 the caliber is 9.3x72R
First proof shot with 7.5 gram powder and 22.9 gram bullet
Second proof shot with 5.0 gram powder and 22.9 gram bullet
Last proof shot/Normal loading 2.5 gram powder and 17.2 gram bullet

16 in circle caliber of shotgun barrels the actual caliber is 16/65
Full chokes

Crown eagle W proof shot of chokes
G proof shot rifle barrel
S proof shot shotgun barrels
U Testshot

KmG 12g stands for copper jacketed bullet 12 grams
Steel type is low-carbon steel brand Wittner
NTRO stands for powder type

Test shot at proof house Suhl…”


Cr17’s Drilling
http://s810.photobucket.com/albums/z...hoto/?newest=1

“…The weapon presented via photographs is a Sidelock Drilling Modell line 140 with French set trigger and separate cocking lever by the company ‘Gebrüder Merkel’ Suhl around 1905. It is a simple Model stained grey and with colored inlays, engraved tendrils and swings, hogs bag stock with German cheek, fore end with checkering, stock magazine. It is a collector item adequate of the age, good condition.
The insurable value is about 1800 to 2300 Euro (Hubertus: currently $2448 to $3128).

Markings

Crown and F is unclear maybe the proof master
Crown / eagle S proof shot shotgun barrels
G proof shot rifle barrel
U test shot
Steel brand Wittener trademark Exzelsior
16 in circle shotgun caliber 16/65
16/1 full choke
Letters are manufacturing markings to allocate every step to a certain armorer
118/35 stands for the caliber of the rifle barrel 9.3x72R (according to the Reichsgesetz)

The weapon was proof shot with smokeless and ‘Schulzepulver’ new type, proof house Suhl
1905 was the change to smokeless

The sequence of powder is:
1880 M71 military powder
Around 1895 ‘Schulzepulver’ civil market
1905 smokeless
Therefore 2,5 g Sch.P. stands for 2.5 gram Schulzepulver with 29.3 gram lead bullet
2,1 gr B.L. stands for 2.1 gram flaked powder Stmg stands for steel jacketed bullet…”


That’s it…

Hubertus

[cr17]

Thanks Hubertus - very informative. I do have a question about the "French triggers with separate cocking lever" It may be a terminology issue could you explain those? Certainly I'm not aware of a separate cocking lever. Mind you this gun still has some mysteries. One is that sights and especially the tang sight - I always assumed that the button to engage the rifle barrel would pop up the rifle barrel sight and then if the tang sight was raised it would lower the barrel sight - this is not the case. Perhaps I haven't hit the right combination or it's not functioning properly? Also, by my research the rifle bore designation 118/35 denotes a .340 land to land measurement giving a .358 bore -- t the .366 I expected. Is this correct? This would actually be a bonus since it will allow standard .35 rifle boolits! I'll have to slug it tonight.

Thanks again.

[PFJC]

Thanks Hubertus,
Very interesting information.
My bore is .346 land to land and .356 groove to groove.
I have been shooting .357 162 grain Saeco semi wad cutter gas check bullets.
I have some .360 round lead balls and I seated one of them today to test fit they won't chamber. Case was RWS neck sized to hold .357 bullet.
My chamber is definately smaller than a standard 9.3x72R.
Paul

[Hubertus]

Thanks Hubertus,
Very interesting information.
My bore is .346 land to land and .356 groove to groove.
I have been shooting .357 162 grain Saeco semi wad cutter gas check bullets.
I have some .360 round lead balls and I seated one of them today to test fit they won't chamber. Case was RWS neck sized to hold .357 bullet.
My chamber is definately smaller than a standard 9.3x72R.
Paul

Paul,
Well the measurement sure beats the stamping. It might well be that your Drilling has a tight bore. Looking into the data book the “official” specs are groove to groove 9.25 mm (.364”) and land to land 8.75 mm (.345”). That 8.75 is darn close to your stamping and is as the conservator stated the bore diameter. If the .360 ball doesn't fit into the chamber and you have good results with the .357 bullets I don’t see a reason not to shoot those.
Do you have a chance to get factory ammunition in 9.3x72R? That might sound strange this is the only caliber of the “old days” that is still produced by RWS and you can have it over the counter here (most probably because of all the old Drillings). If the factory ammo would fit your chamber it would be a very good indication, although your dummy round with the .360 seems to do the job, too. So you find me still puzzled and I am sorry that I cannot help further.

Thanks Hubertus - very informative. I do have a question about the "French triggers with separate cocking lever" It may be a terminology issue could you explain those? Certainly I'm not aware of a separate cocking lever. Mind you this gun still has some mysteries. One is that sights and especially the tang sight - I always assumed that the button to engage the rifle barrel would pop up the rifle barrel sight and then if the tang sight was raised it would lower the barrel sight - this is not the case. Perhaps I haven't hit the right combination or it's not functioning properly? Also, by my research the rifle bore designation 118/35 denotes a .340 land to land measurement giving a .358 bore -- t the .366 I expected. Is this correct? This would actually be a bonus since it will allow standard .35 rifle boolits! I'll have to slug it tonight.

Thanks again.

Cr17
I cannot confirm the boolit diameter but this might be, given PFJC’s findings (please see the original specs above).
Ok I’ll try to explain what I know from the heart, mind I don’t have a Drilling myself but it is a standard subject in the Hunters’ education class over here – more modern ones. [Just a note on that one – my hunter education class lasted around a year (every weekend) there are practical lessons involved, too and in the end there is quite a hard test (written, oral and shooting test).]
It is indeed a terminology issue – the separate cocking lever is the knob that engages the rifle barrel. It does not only engage the barrel but “cock” it. Usually with pushing this knob forward the barrel sight should stand up. Didn’t see one with a tang sight so far.
In terms of the “French triggers” you might know this already but here it goes.
In Germany two types of set triggers have been and are still popular:
The first type we call “German set trigger” this is a double set trigger like in a Sharps, where the rear trigger reduces the pull of the front trigger. Apparently this is not possible in a Drilling. You, for sure, found out already that the rear trigger operates the left shotgun barrel (at least it usually does) and the front trigger operates the right shotgun barrel and when engaged the rifle barrel. Still there is a possibility to include a set trigger option you guessed it the second type – “French set trigger”. I think I’ve seen the set screw in one of your pics – it should be either in front or behind the front trigger.
Try to push the front trigger gently forward until you feel it click in place, you now have engaged the French set trigger. This should reduce the trigger pull tremendously. The amount can be adjusted with the set screw. I hope that helps.
If you knew all this, please excuse my chit-chat.

Hubertus

[cr17]

Hubertus - again thank you very much for the time and effort you've put in on this. All information is good - especially confirmatory information. Your Hunter education sounds quite extensive certainly makes all the complaining about our hunter safety and gun ownership courses seem trivial. Many years ago when we had a base in Lahr I had the privilege of hunting boar with one of the forest meisters from there and in Baden Baden quite an experience!

All the best

[Hubertus]

My pleasure!

Yes, boar hunting can be really exciting - did you get one?
It's interesting how many of the forum member have been over here... sometimes I get the feeling half the forum visited Germany

Hubertus

[ltclark]

I don't know if anyone is still looking at this thread - but I need some help - I have a 16x16x8.7x72 drilling with "prima kruppstahl" stamped on the sides of the shotgun barrels and on the tops are "A. Korinski" and "Erlangen." Years ago I had a gunsmith tell me that I could use 9.3x72 cartridges which I acquired and shot a few with no issues - but now I am older and a little more cautious. Anyway I have two boxes of cartridges one (RWS Jagbuchsenpatronen 9.3 x 72-berdan primers) which fit easily into the gun and the other (in generic box marked "9.3x72R" which are very tight - some fit and close but a few lack 1/2 inch of chambering ---- WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE "72" VS "72R"?? Would that difference be significant and can I resize the cases so they fit into my gun??

I have the Lyman 366408 molds and wondered which of the loads mentioned above is recommended safe shooting - I dont believe I need to resort to BP - but????

Thanks for any assistance.

[Sailorman]

Itclark, Prima Kruppstahl means "top grade Krupp steel". From a quick search (and of course you can trust the internet!), Anton Ferdinand Korinski was a gun dealer in Erlangen, Bavaria from 1908-1920. The shotgun should be chambered for 16/65 (short 16 gauge) shells, the R in 9,3x72R stands for rimmed. As far as I know (and like Hubertus, I went through the German hunting course) 9,3x72 always was rimmed to function in break open actions. I have seen that some manufacturers dropped the "R" on the packaging (just saw a box from Altdorf without the R on it). Best idea would be to take a chamber cast and measure it to confirm dimensions.
BTW, I have an old Oberhammer drilling with the same chamberings as yours.
Best of luck!

[ltclark]

Hey - thanks much - the info is much appreciated - I will definitely do so. Now that you mentioned Krupp - I remember an uncle who was a very talented gunsmith telling me that it was made of "Krupp steel."

Do you shoot reloads in your drilling?? - What molds do you use? What powder charge??

Thanks again.

[Hubertus]

Itclark,
I do have a German reloading book with some recommended loads.
The powders used are mainly German or Finish IIRC, but you could certainly compare that to a burn rate chart.
You are welcome to write me PM and I can send you the data - of course the use would be on your own risk.

Hubertus

[boca]

Hi
My great uncle had 2 Merkel Drillings both 2x16 with 9.3 x 72r . One had a .22 hornet insert in the 16ga barrel. My Grand father bought them to Australia for him when my opa and mother came out in the early 60,s. He told me when they hunted with the drillings in Germany, his dog a GSP would have differnt yelps for the game that would be spotted/flushed so you could select the right barrel ,shot for rabbits buckshot for pigs etc and a deer with the rifle . I carried the drilling as a young lad I still have a 9.3 shell at home that was always in the gun just in case I saw a pig. After years of walking the property I never fired that particular round off . After 27 years Last year with my son I shot this pig on the property Which my young GSP spotted .
Its good to see you using your drilling they are a great kit to have in the field I have a combo myself and find it the first gun I pickup when I go pig shooting . Its ashame that its 16ga, I am looking on getting one with 2x12ga 3inch chambers and a 7x57 .
Another thing I heard about the drilling was the german luftwaffe used these as a survival rifle for their pilots.

[texasnative46]

boca,

I know this thread is >3 years old BUT perhaps people would like to know that the Luftwaffe bought commercial drillings that were 12x70mm X 12x70mm over 9.3x74R for aircraft survival weapons.

yours, tex

[dakotamar]

here i am bringing an old thread back to life. recently picked up one of these rifles and wondering what dies are people using for resizing brass and where are you finding brass? I am located in Canada.

[SNDBGGR1484]

I was looking at a Hammer Drilling Double Rifle and the rifle barrel was marked 108/49 and wondered if this would be similar to the 9.3X72R? The rifle was marked J. P. Sauer & Sohn.It has 2 barrels.One is 16 ga. side by side barrels that are 29 1/2'' long and the other barrel is 16 ga. and the (Rifle) 108/49 that is 26 3/4'' long.The serial number is 10176.Since this was on the topic of Drillings I hope to get some information.

Thanks, Ken