Paper Patch Pig Gun Project

[303Guy]

This load had plenty pressure and anyway, the boolits don't need to bump up - they're pretty big to start with. The Pig Gun has a rough and pitted bore so too much too much pressure just disintegtrates the patch. The bore is now coated with lead from breach to muzzle. It'll be fun cleaning it out! Scotch Brite and steel wool work great.

[303Guy]

Well now, here's a curious thing - I stuck the sights onto the Pig Gun using some epoxy or the other and today I tried to take the foresight off so I can test tube develope a load for it and would you believe a hammer and drift won't knock it off! Maybe I can 'glue' the scope base on with the same stuff.

[303Guy]

I've been developing a load for the Pig Gun. 14gr AR2205/H4227 under a 230gr hollow nose paper patched 'torpedo'. Here is how it performed in soaked wool furniture padding (which seems to simulate flesh quite well).

Retained weight - 229gr.

Not too shabby!

[zuke]

Have you tried to use paper patched to clean out the leaded bore?
I had that problem in my 1895 Marlin 45-70 and a some PP cleaned it right up.

[303Guy]

Have you tried to use paper patched to clean out the leaded bore?

No I haven't. I was getting leading in this gun with paper patched boolits so took that to mean the patch was failing in the bore. I suppose I could have fired a few known working loads through it. I used Scotch Brite abbrasive scourer pad. Even then, it took quite a few strokes with a clean pad to get it all out. This bore is seriously pitted and rough. It's amazing that a patch can get through whole but they do

When I get some more brass I'll make a few 'fire-lapping' bullets and give a good 'clean'.



The first four bands are there to fit the throat and guide the bullet. The last two bands do the work - they're over-groove diameter.

[michael30.06]

when you say brass are you turning that fire lapping bullet out off solid brass?

[303Guy]

Yes, it's turned from brass rod. I size it from throat measurements although the base bands are as large as the chamber will allow. Those are seated in the neck and hold the abrasive (no abrasive can get between the case and chamber wall. the case is as fired in that same chamber. The idea of the second and third band is to engage the rifling to start the bullet spin before the abrasive hits the leade so as not to wear the driving edge more than necessary.

[michael30.06]

Impressive!
Must find access to a lathe and some lessons somewhere.

[barrabruce]

Hey what sort of glue did you use for the front sight 303-guy?????
I was testing some loads today at the range.

Swapped over from real mild cast to PP and me "you beut turret adjustable cap" I knocked up and soldered on flew back over me shoulder with the recoil.
Well it held up for 6 mths so at least it was a start.

Barra

[303Guy]

It's some stuff called "Fast Fix" and it comes in a roll which you slice off and mix. It's dark grey and sets hard. I got that sight off by heating it. My very first Lee Endield has it's scope mount soldered on and that's lasted some thirty years but I did give is a large surface area. I've done two such scope mounts. My 22 has its scope mounts glued on with "Pratley Epoxy". That's lasted some thirty years. I also had an air rifle with a glued on scope mount. The trick is to give it a large curved glue or solder surface.

[barrabruce]

Ahhh got it!!!!... metal putty stuff then.

I stuck it together with 24 hr adrilldite but I doubt it will last long as my experiance with it has only ever been mediocre.

I'll track some metal exopy 2 part squishy stuff down next time a got to town.

Thanks 303-guy

Cheers

Bruce

[303Guy]

Not metal putty. Fast Fix has fibre in it but not metal. It can be machined though. The great thing is that it's dark grey and doesn't show on a gun.

[303Guy]

Can anyone advise me on slow powders in a short barrel with a heavy boolit?

The pig gun has a 322mm (12.7 inch) bore. The load I have found that disintegrates the patch without leading is 14gr AR2205/H4227 under a 230gr boolit. The cases I am using have a 41gr capacity of that powder. That's 34% load density. A disaster waiting to happen!

I am fitting a suppressor to the gun so muzzle blast isn't an issue. I have fired AR2209/H4350 starting loads under a 180gr boolit and it seemed OK. What I am thinking of is a minimum charge of AR2209 under the 230grainer or even a 245gr FN since the velocity should be high enough for expansion (I think).

[zuke]

Have you tried Trail Boss powder?
I opened up my first can about a month and have been pleasntly surprised with it.

[303Guy]

I haven't tried Trail Boss. Not sure it's available in my parts.

I did try a light load of AR2209/H4350 and it burned clean. Muzzle blast was greater as expected and pressure was moderate. I would like to go lower but I'm just not brave enough - I'm already at 69% load density. That's with a 230gr boolit.

[longbow]

Not sure what you are trying to do with a light load of slow powder in a short barrel.

I would expect a fast to medium burn powder would give you what you want for velocity.

I am generally using IMR4227 and IMR4198 under boolits of up to 250 grs. in my .303. Also, I am generally using COW filler.

I know the filler issue opens a can of worms for many people but I see several advantages and have as yet to experience a problem with carefully worked up loads. If you want a reduced charge of slow powder I am afraid I cannot see a disadvantage to using the filler on top to maintain 100% loading density ~ assuming you start with a known low pressure load then add filler and work up in powder and down in filler until you get where you want or see pressure signs.

For instance, I am currently loading 19 grs. of IMR4227 under a 200 gr. boolit and topping up the case with COW which weighs 27 grs. so just over 10% increase in projectile weight. This load shoots quite well and very clean. I see no signs of high pressure but also have not pushed the load.

I don't think 10% increase in weight is enough to worry about and but the reduced volume with definitely increase pressures.

IMR4227 should not need a filler but I am using the 316299 with no gas check and getting the same performance from it over filler as with no filler and a gas check. If loaded with no filler and no gas check, accuracy is poor and I get gas cutting.

I have also used filler with IMR4064 and IMR4320 but have not done much work there. Again, while accuracy was not great with the loads I tried, they were reduced loads with filler, they shot clean and no leading with no gas check.

I would be reluctant to use significantly reduced loads of 4350 without filler

In any case, if you use paper patched boolits and medium burn rate powder you should be able to get the velocities you want with or without filler.

In case you haven't seen them, here are a couple of articles on granular fillers:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ller/index.asp

Also, our own Larry Gibson is doing some test work with filler loads in the 6.5 Swede posted in the special projects section. Also a good read and very educational.

Not sure if that helps or is confusing but... that's all I got.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks, Longbow. Haven't heard from you for a while.

My reasoning is to move away from powders that can be overloaded catestrophically. I don't want too much pressure because the patch fails. I also don't want too much muzzle blast/pressure. The load that seems to meet my requirements is 69% load density. If it's possible to reduce the load and use a filler (other than Dacron) then that might be the way to go. How would tightly packed Dacron work?

[longbow]

You are asking the wrong guy.

I have never used a "fluffy" filler so have no personal experience with them.

I first tried granular filler after corresponding with David Southall who wrote the article on "Cast Bullets in the .303. As per the article, he claimed improved performance, less leading, better accuracy, etc. and commented that he found COW better than cornmeal. So I tried both and have to say I too have gotten better results with COW.

I had seen reports of horror stories about people using fillers so wondered if things might go bad then found the article on Surplusrifles.com which made me feel better again.

I also found the information on Puff-Lon which while lower density than COW as far as I can tell, it is not low density fluff. Since this is sold commercially I can't imagine that there is a high likelihood of damage to gun or shooter if used correctly.

Anyway, all this made me feel better so I carried on with COW working up loads.

The benefits I see are:

- 100% loading density so no chance of double charging
- 100% loading density so ignition and powder burn should be good and consistent ~ this should work with light charges of fast to medium powders and also lower lopading density charges of slow powder because the excess volume is eliminated
- seems to replace gas check
- seems to eliminate leading
- cheap
- easy
- readily available (I have to order in gas checks or travel far to get them)

All good stuff in my view and I have as yet to experience a problem. I guess my view is that the chamber pressures even with light loads are enough to extrude lead so should extrude COW even if it "hardens". If loads are carefully worked up I cannot see why pressures would suddenly run amok.

However, many slow powders do not like low density loading with lots of excess case volume. That can result in a SEE. So more dangerous I think than filler. I see several recommendation not to go below 80% loading density for some slow burning powders.

As for "fluffy" fillers like Dacron, from what I read, you are best to use a light tuft with no packing. The idea is to hold the powder back against the primer so it is not laying along the length of the case. As far as I know relatively fast to medium burn rate powders are usually used. I am sure someone here will add to this or correct me if that is wrong.

If you pack it down leaving an air gap between "wad" and bullet, the fear is that the Dacron (or whatever) can act as a projectile whacking the base of the boolit and ringing the chamber. Whether this would be an issue if you filled the case, I do not know.

CBE sells wool filler:

http://www.beavergrease.co.nz/index_files/Page314.html

This looks to me like a more substantial filler than puffy Dacron.

From my point of view, I would not hesitate to CAREFULLY work up a load with filler using 4350 if that is what you want to use. I would agree that a shotgun buffer will likely be superior to COW or other cereal filler. However, there also seems to be a successful track record with COW.

You would do well to research this by reading all the info you can then deciding what you feel comfortable doing.

Again, not sure if that helps or confuses.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Not confusing at all! Thanks you, I appreciate the help.

Ummm.... what exactly is COW (Cream Of Wheat)? I like the sound of what it does.

Wool yous say? Mmmm... I happen to have some wool wads that JeffinNZ kindly send me for trials. (I would experiment with cotton but I have succeeded in igniting the stuff and we have some pretty dry bush and grass around here!)

[303Guy]

The Pig Gun is slowly taking shape.



Not sure how to aim it yet. It points quite well. I have a scope for it but might just opt for peep sights - scopes fog up in the rain!