Paper Patch Pig Gun Project

[303Guy]

... its a harmonics compensator.

I knew that! On that skinny barrel it works well too. Mmmm ..... 'Harmonics Compensator'. That would sell!

Are flash hiders legal in your parts? (It does that too).

[Doughty]

303guy

Just to give you a heads up............There's no such thing as a "complete collection" of anything. You'll find pretty soon that you either need one more or one less. And then it starts all over again.

[Zeek]

. . . Are flash hiders legal in your parts?

Dear 303Guy:
If you would have kept the longer barrel on that thing and developed subsonic heavy-PPCBoo loads, you would have found yourself with a very willing rifle and no need for a hider ~~~> i.e., for, indeed, the spirit is willing, but the flash is weak.
Zeek

[Zeek]

Uhmmmmm . . . .avatar...... ?

Well, thank you very much, 303Guy. However, with all due respect to special Russian Imperial Stouts, if you don't mind, I'd much rather av-a-IPA.
Zeek

[303Guy]

If you would have kept the longer barrel on that thing ...

Aaah ... true, but - that thing's barrel looked like the inside of an old waterpipe! And it was bent. I managed to get even more rust out yesterday and the rifling itself looks like it could launch a boolit accurately! But there is a rust pit in the neck area that makes case extraction difficult.

However, my 'new' rifle has an exellent bore and is full lenth! Anyway, I've got so many of these things that one of them simply has to be a DeLisle type carbine. (But I don't want to chop up a good one! Still, I bought it specifically for that purpose. So we'll see what I decide to do).

The is the thing about having enough pressure to upset the boolit to fully obturate the bore just at the throat. To do that and still be sub-sonic, one needs a short barrel.

But now that you mention it, I shall have a look at the long barreled gun with the view to going quiet and subsonic at lower pressure. Thanks for the idea.

[303Guy]

Zeek, you got me thinking. (And it hurts! ) I didn't really want to chop up good barreled gun and now I don't have to! I found a use for it full length. Well, I think I have. I am busy loading up a 245gr boolit (with sized core) and a light charge of powder. The idea must surely work. And if'n I make it into a kinda bull-pup with a scope forward of the action .... I would still have my carbine!

[Zeek]

Zeek, you got me thinking. (And it hurts! ) I didn't really want to chop up good barreled gun and now I don't have to! I found a use for it full length. Well, I think I have. I am busy loading up a 245gr boolit (with sized core) and a light charge of powder. The idea must surely work. And if'n I make it into a kinda bull-pup with a scope forward of the action .... I would still have my carbine!

Hmmm, yes. Try adding around twice the thickness of paper you need to patch the core up to groove diameter, then size it to just over groove diameter. Under that approach, the gas trapped in the PPatch will have been expelled and the PPCBoo will not NEED to be expanded like mad just to fit the barrel. At that point, VERY CAREFULLY!!!! try using no more than 7.0 grains of Vihtavuori N310 (the fastest canister powder available, by a WIDE margin!). With that charge, you should get a 20 Kpsi load with just over 70 Bars of muzzle pressure (with full barrel length on 303Br), and 1050 fps. Be really careful with that powder, amigo! With far smaller cases, you might get down to below ~35 Bars of muzzle pressure, which is nearly "silent," but the large 303Br case makes ~70 Bars the lowest you can get at that MV. Going down to 3.5 grains would give 37 Bars muzzle pressure, but the MV would drop to around 730 fps.
Like the man said, "You get what you play for!", or as they say at NASA, "There's no such thing as a free launch!"
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

Thanks Zeek.

At that kind of pressure, I could construct a rather large but short barrel overhang silencer from lightweight aluminium. I only have to not hurt my ears (nor anyone elses) and I have exceptionally sensitive ears.

What sort of pressures do 22 RF's have at the muzzle? Subsonic and supersonic? (If you happen to know - and I suspect you know a great deal! )

Oh, I should mention, the reason for having a bore sized nose section boolit after paper patching is the seating depth - the boolit protrudes more than half its length into the bore. I could try seating the boolit right back into the case with the nose ogive just engaging the leade. Mmmm ..... I never thought of that before! Of course, I would have to change my case sizing practices to remove the 'dough-nut'. Easily do-able.

Funny how we get comfortable in thinking in a certain way until someone provokes us into having a rethink! I love this forum!

Like the man said, "You get what you play for!", or as they say at NASA, "There's no such thing as a free launch!"

I like it!

[Zeek]

Thanks Zeek.

. . . . What sort of pressures do 22 RF's have at the muzzle? Subsonic and supersonic?

I don't know that, but here is something related: I have heard that any barrel over 16" in length will cause a DECREASE in MV (compared to a 16" barrel). That is a pretty low muzzle pressure, then.

. . . . Of course, I would have to change my case sizing practices to remove the 'dough-nut'.

My slug-gestion is that you dough-nut dooooo that. It won't make much difference. If you want real quiet with plenty of power, try a 26" barrel 44 Magnum with a 300 grain GCCBoo. You can get up to just under the speed of sound, giving LOTS of power with such a CBoo, yet have just about NAAAAH-thing for muzzle pressure. Think expansion ratio, then maximize it with larger caliber, longer barrel, and smaller case capacity and THERE you HAVE it: heavy power (deer capable) yet no real muzzle blast ~~~> "We don NEEEED no stinkin' silencer!"
Regards, Zeek

[303Guy]

Maybe one day I will go 44 mag but, mine's gonna be a slight variation using 303 Brit cases - what the heck, it's about having fun and I just so happen to have chosen the 303 Brit and the Lee Enfield to play with!

But, at this point my challenge to myself is to get my rusty barreled 'Pig Gun' to shoot! I am curious to see what a torpedo shaped PPCBoo can do. I have another project going in conjunction with a fellow Kiwi and this 'Pig Gun' is a prelude to that project. The basics of this other project are his so I shan't be mentioning the details. The pig gun was my original intention and it let to other new ideas. So, to keep velocity down and chamber pressure up, I have opted to try heavy boolits and shotgun powder. Now to get to a range! Every week-end something comes up that stops me and I getting kinda eager.

[Emptye]

Re: Long eye relief scopes ... there are cheaper alternatives to Leupold, I've got one of these http://www.opticsplanet.net/ncstar-p...g-spb220b.html scout mounted on my Marlin Guide Gun. Not sure about availability in NZ but it might be worth the look.

Nice rifle, I'm sure the pigs are going to hate it

Mark in Bama

[303Guy]

Thanks for the link, Emptye.

I'll check our local scope supplyers - gunshops and internet sales. I can also get a quick-point, second hand - new one's are a bit pricey for the application.

Are you paper patching for your marlin? Have you got pics you could post? I'd be interested to see it.

[Bullshop Junior]

You guys lost me.

Are you still gonna do the short barreled 303?

[Emptye]

I picked it up as a cheaper alternative because a I had some concerns about the Scout set-up because of an hand/eye dominance switch (very right handed but mildly left eye dominant). I figured if it didn't work I wouldn't have dumped a load of cash on a scope that I couldn't use. Turned out that I didn't have any issues and have been quite happy with the scope.

Not paper patching yet, it's a matter of priorities ... a new stock on my wife's Swede is at the top of the list ... maybe next year if I'm lucky.

Have been holding off on pictures until the Marlin is really in the shape I want it in ... still need back-up iron sights and a new recoil pad (the one from factory is less a pad and more a rock), but I'll see if what I can so about taking a few.

Mark

[303Guy]

I would love to get my wife out there with me her own rifle. For now that's just a dream.

Are you still gonna do the short barreled 303?

Oh yes, it's still happening but I like to jump from one project to the other! I've been a little distracted lately and my other Brit was easier to play with.
The shorty has a chamber pitting problem which makes for difficult case extraction so I intend replacing the entire chamber potion of the barrel and using a smaller capacity case at the same time. This will take a while but I will still do some tests with it as is. I also intend using it to develope an effective but very small suppressor.

[barrabruce]

Hey Zeek got a pic of this long 44 mag???
Whats the twist rate and the accuracy and knock down power to say 200-300 yrds???

How do you manage such a long gun???
Do you pick a straight path and poke it throu the trees hand over hand and stick it in thiers ears or something???

Curious as we aint allowed not sticking muffler on our guns over here anyways!!!
a 48 " .22lr sposed to work too...aparently

Anything in 30 cal work the same??? 40-45 might be a bit rough on the pidgeons for tea
Barra

[Zeek]

Hey Zeek got a pic of this long 44 mag???
Whats the twist rate and the accuracy and knock down power to say 200-300 yrds???

A subsonic round would be for close-in work only, on game. However, it sure oculd be fun for plinking at longer distances. I do not have such a rifle, but a twist rate in 44 of 1:20 should work very reliably. My big bullet 44 shooting has been with my DW 445SM sixgun . . . using a caseful of AA-1680 under a 410gr LBT LFN, for an MV of ~1050 flips. It starts at the speed of sound but only looses only ~100 flips per 100 yards (= the subsonic-only vel-loss rate for most heavy-for the caliber blunt-nosed CBoos), so still has plenty of plinking WHUMP (so you can SEE where you hit) out to around 600 yards or more (the dustier the area, the further out you can see the impact location). Long range sixgun plinking is lots of fun! Use a Keith ladder-bar-backed front sight for consistent hold-over. At any irate, the revolver's barrel has a twist rate (by memory) of ~1:20 and works great for a very-heavy-for-that-caliber CBoo, so I believe that same twist rate would work in a rifle, especially with them lightweight 330 grainers.

How do you manage such a long gun???
Do you pick a straight path and poke it throu the trees hand over hand and stick it in thiers ears or something???

A Ruger #1, for example, with a 26" barrel is not any longer than a bolt action with a 22" barrel. If that is too long for you, for a special-purpose rifle, then you'll find your gollies elsewhere. The most obvious pick for an awful-the-shelf option would be an H&R Handi Rifle in 44 Mag, but that has a 1:39 twist which will stabilize bullets no heavier than 300 grains, and THAT only at full powder ~~~> with a subsonic load, you'd probably have to stick with 250 grain CBoos, but it would still be very quiet.

Curious as we aint allowed not sticking muffler on our guns over here anyways!!!
a 48 " .22lr sposed to work too...aparently

Yes, it probably would, but at a rather low MV. So what? Yes, it WOULD be quiet, but why not opt for a handier rifle of larger caliber that is no louder?

Anything in 30 cal work the same??? 40-45 might be a bit rough on the pidgeons for tea.

I've never invited any pidgeons for tea, but I'll take your word for it. Regardless of caliber (within reason, now, so control yerseff, there, Barra!) a subsonic CBoo with a meplat of half the caliber's cross sectional area will work well dispite the lower impact velocity. A friend of mine was testing out 22LR ammo he had modified (to give it such a meplat) using the 22 SGB Tool that Alan Taylor and I developed (I sold these for ~10 years). He and another friend were up in Wyoming and nailing prairie dogs using revolvers. One large pdawg was at what later pesoed out to be (as I recall) 250 yards. It took a number of shots, but Bud finally connected with it. Despite the bullet's having an MV of only ~1100 fps, from his revolver, and the bullet's having traveled that far (impact vel ~800 fps?) they could clearly hear the WHUMP, even at that distance, and the pdawg fell over right there. So, you see, CBoos with that size meplat DO work nicely, even at rather low impact velocities. I'm not pullin' this out of my ear.

For a gunsmith with the need for a really quiet-yet-WHUMPful rifle, a suitable action fitted with a 22" barrel 30 caliber (not 32) barrel with a 1:10 twist in 32 acp chambeirng (Note: max ch. press. is 24 Kpsi), and throated to give a 0.310" diameter throat cylinder 0.4" long (then the leade cone from there forward into the bore diameter) would allow chambering of a case with a gaschecked L311041 seated 0.15" deep (the GC is needed, given the small seating depth). For that combo, here is what you could get:
4.0gr Blue Dot = 970 fps & Muz. Press. of 41 Bars at ~ 19 Kpsi max ch. pressure
1.6gr V's N310 = 712 fps & " " of 14 Bars at ~ 20 Kpsi " " "
2.5gr Unique = 880 fps & " " of 25 Bars at ~ 20 Kpsi " " "

So, you can pick your poison, but that CBoo, with its large meplat, WILL prove effective, and the load very quiet, in such a special application rifle, and the CBoo WILL stabilize at that MV-and-twist (try it yourself with small charges of shotgun powder in your 30-30, but the muzzle pressure will be MUCH higher, so too noisy for this use). Of course, if that is not your area of interest, then that's fine too, but it CAN be done, and would prove VERY handy in an area overun, for example, with feral dogs and/or cats, so long as one practiced careful fire control ~~~> People just HATE it when they find bullets a-stickin-out of their house's exterior, even if all they heard was the WHUMP!, and the bullet (or hole) points right back to the location from which it was fired, which would not leave much to imagination in a sparcely-populated area.
Zeek

[303Guy]

32 ACP rifle! Mmmm ..... Long ago I imagined such a chambering!

I'm guessing at the reason for the 30 bore for the 32 but would rather hear your splanation. I suspect it's along the lines of my wanting to chamber a 303 Brit for 8mm-303. In my case it would be to get a bore diameter core patched boolit into the chamber. At the moment, the bore-ride is bore size after patching and that seems to need a very soft nose to properly cut the patch.

Another thought that crossed my mind is to cut back the Lee Enfield chamber to the point were a 30-30 case head fits, then form cases from 30-30 brass to suite such a wildcat chamber. The magazine would accomodate real long boolits!

[Bullshop Junior]

I would love to get my wife out there with me her own rifle. For now that's just a dream.

Oh yes, it's still happening but I like to jump from one project to the other! I've been a little distracted lately and my other Brit was easier to play with.
The shorty has a chamber pitting problem which makes for difficult case extraction so I intend replacing the entire chamber potion of the barrel and using a smaller capacity case at the same time. This will take a while but I will still do some tests with it as is. I also intend using it to develope an effective but very small suppressor.

Make a 45 ACP.

[Bullshop Junior]

32 ACP rifle! Mmmm ..... Long ago I imagined such a chambering!

I'm guessing at the reason for the 30 bore for the 32 but would rather hear your splanation. I suspect it's along the lines of my wanting to chamber a 303 Brit for 8mm-303. In my case it would be to get a bore diameter core patched boolit into the chamber. At the moment, the bore-ride is bore size after patching and that seems to need a very soft nose to properly cut the patch.

Another thought that crossed my mind is to cut back the Lee Enfield chamber to the point were a 30-30 case head fits, then form cases from 30-30 brass to suite such a wildcat chamber. The magazine would accomodate real long boolits!

Last I heard DK17HMR was making a 25 ACP rifle. I don't know if he is still doing it.