RCE Presses

[ANeat]

Very nice pics, Ive done a little price checking over the weekend and using pre polished ground rods and using 1018 for the plates youre looking at approx $150.00 in metal. This is for something like a cross between the Walnut Hill and Mega Mite.

I Think with Manley's pics and the info on the web a guy could make a pretty respectable press.

I do like the idea of the extra guide plate like the Mega Mite and Walnut hill. The extra space between the support/guide rods as well.


I also like the way the Walnut hill is setup with the linkage going from the toggle to the top plate.


A guy building his own could incorporate the features he likes

[Willbird]

ANeat, where did you check prices ??

There are several kinds of turned/ground/polished rod avail, some hard and others not hardened...some even have a hard chrome on them I think ? 1018 would be a good steel to use, 4140 pre heat treat would be a little more difficult to machine. The machines that use cast parts, does anybody know if it is cast iron, or cast steel ?

Bill

[ANeat]

Willbird Speedy metals has ground/polished 1144 stressproof. I was figuring 1" for the guides and at least 1.25 on the main ram.

Ive also seen some that were hardened, chromed. Im still open for suggestions or better ideas.
One other concern on the rod is the guide rams will need to have either threads turned on the ends, or holes tapped in the ends so some degree of machinability needs to be there.

Also the main ram will need a slot milled for the knockout pin, the hole drilled/tapped for the dies and the hole for the linkage.

I figured 1018 for the ease of welding as I think the toggle will need welded up

[Willbird]

well on any of the hardened material, it only usually has a hard shell....once you get through that the core is soft.

[ANeat]

Yes some do have a soft core. Ive also found some hardened shafting that you buy a specific length and the ends are soft.

If I had it on hand I would sure try it but Im trying to avoid buying something that is difficult to work with. Lack of experience on my part I guess
Also as you add features to the rod, ground/polished/chromed/hardened its gets more expensive.
Plus trying to order from as few places as possible to keep the shipping down, so far Speedy metals seems to have the best combination. Getting most of the material needed.

But I havent ordered anything yet and Im open to ideas/suggestions.


I would also probably end up ordering some bronze bushings from Mcmaster for all the bearing surfaces.

[chrisx1]

ANeat - you're right on track - keep up the good work!

I'm with you on the features of the WH - definately would like to see the design go in that direction if at all possible -

Chris

[Willbird]

I have worked with the hardened and chromed stuff quite a bit. For a keyway you just mill a flat first.

To make several of them if we come up with a group effort I might suggest machining them up, then having them case hardened, then OD ground. They would have to have centers in both ends but that is no big deal, and they would probably be a good idea for machining anyway.

Speedy metals might well be the MOST expensive place to buy, but it is a good reference at least to what is readily available.

I'm guessing they just use a dog point setscrew running in the keyway to stop the ram from rotating out of position.

For the two long tie rods, or tension rods I'm thinking that long socket head capscrews might work fine. That way you are buying a ready made part with the heat treat already done. A 3/4-10 socket heat cap screw 10" long for example from Mcmaster is $13, a 1-8 10" long is $21. Once again Mcmaster may not be the best price, but good place to check avail.

Bill

[ANeat]

Actually Mcmaster is a lot higher on the ground rod and 1018 steel. If there are better places please clue us in.

The ram itself should just be round, no keyway, They have a slot milled for the knockout pin. Being pinned to the toggle at the bottom will keep it from rotating. Plus it is mounted to the guide plate? somehow, threaded in I assume

Now remember Im talking about something closer to the Walnut Hill or Mega Mite press that has a guide that rides up with the ram, and goes up along the two tension rods.

The CSP may be the one youre thinking of


Im also trying to avoid outsourcing any machining. Start paying a shop to heat treat and OD grind and you would be right there at the cost of buying it pre-ground I think...


One example on the guide rod, or tension rods.

McMaster has pre-finished case hardened, 1" dia with threads on each end. 12" travel for $70.00




Where as a 18" piece of ground/polished 1144 stressproof from Speedy Metals is $11.00


Now the Stressproof is no-where near as hard as the casehardened rod from McMaster but Im not sure if it needs to be that hard.

Looks like any contact/wear points can be bronze bushed.

[ANeat]

Another example/possibility from McMaster. They have regular case hardened polished/ground linear shafting. $20.00 for the 1" dia, 18" long. That seems like a worthwhile upgrade

The same thing but with chrome plating is $50.00

[richbug]

For the two long tie rods, or tension rods I'm thinking that long socket head capscrews might work fine. That way you are buying a ready made part with the heat treat already done. A 3/4-10 socket heat cap screw 10" long for example from Mcmaster is $13, a 1-8 10" long is $21. Once again Mcmaster may not be the best price, but good place to check avail.

Bill

I have a surplus hardware/tool and die type place about an hour away, I was going to make the pilgrimage to see if they had any 7/8-14 or 1.25-12 bolts to make some dies from.

IIRC they get $1 a pound for all their bolts, probably have 25 tons of allen bolts, 10 times that in hex head cap screws.

[Willbird]

cnczone.com is a good place to surf to find places to buy stuff. The shafting a lot of guys use for building machines is called IHCP for "Induction Hardened Chrome Plated".

We are not talking reloading press's here, but the issue to me with a soft shaft is that any abrasive that gets into the works will load into the bronze bushing then cut away at the steel part.

The Mcmaster part sort of looks like a cylinder rod ?

Most good bolts(grade 8) are 4140 steel I think ?? it is OK at 38-40 rockwell, but if you heat treat it to 55-60 rockwell it gets brittle. Many reloading dies are just case hardened...not sure what they use to make swaging dies.

A lot of steel forming dies I used to make were made of D2........

Speedy metals and online metals are more expensive than say a local steel supplier, IF you can find one that does not have BS minimum orders...more or less some are willing to sell to somebody that wants less than $100 of stuff, others are not willing.

cast iron bushings might actually be superior to bronze IF the parts that runs in them is hardened. To do it properly in either case the bushings will need to be machined to final size AFTER being pressed or shrunk in.

Bill

[ANeat]

The Mcmaster stuff is for linear guides and such. They have plain ends, tapped ends, threaded ends like in the pic.

I think the plain end I mentioned, case hardened to 60 I believe would be the best option.

Drill and tap a hole in the ends and bolt into place. (for the guides)

Yea I know the bushings will need bored out after instalation.

I know the online places arent the best but around me they either have no selection, or they bend ya over a stump

[Willbird]

The deal with the Thompson stuff is that is has a straightness spec that is far better than what we need.

This is the stuff a lot of folks use.....

http://www.specialtysteel.com/products-1045ihcp.shtml

There are places that sell geared to home cnc builders that have ballscrew by the inch, I was hoping to find one that had IHCP.

here is one place, I inquired about prices on 4" to 6" lengths just to see what they say..........

http://rst.pbclinear.com/RST/roundsh...FdRM5QodL2yK3g

[ANeat]

Yes Willbird its probably the same stuff that McMaster sells. I know thw price on the plated stuff goes up real fast.

It will be nice if they are less expensive

The Numbers for the 2 items I was refering to from McMaster are 60345k43 and 6061k45

[Willbird]

OK they replied back asking for sizes, and I told them (2) pieces 1" dia and 18" long. Lets see what they say. It will be nice of we can agree on a design then we can maybe save a bit ordering some stuff in multiples.

[MightyThor]

Being a dumpster diver/scrounge from 4 generations back, I suggest that a lot of prototype stuff can be built with car parts. Ruana built knives out of Studabaker springs.

Anyone here consider making rams out of axle shafts? Junk yards gotta have a ton of them. I read somewhere that early bullet dies were made outta truck axles. Seems to me that some decent toggles could be cut out of the springs, Housings formed from axle housings, might want bronze bushings for guides etc. I have lots of Ideas on how I want to make mine, but no time to do it right now.

I guess what I am saying is design first, build with cheap materials second, upgrade parts as needed.
Not sure what would have to be hard stock until the design is complete. A soft steel shaft 4 inches in diameter will push so hard without bending that no hardening would be necessary but wear might be an issue. Weight too. I am lurking cause you guys are da brains but I love where this thread is going

[shooterg]

Had to put struts on front of vehicle. Wondering about the material in the central rods in those things - still shiny after 135,000 miles - maybe useful in making a press ?

[bohica2xo]

There seems to be a disconnect here between designs of presses & materials.

The press in the pictures on page 2 uses a pair of rods in tension to hold the top plate against the force of the ram. the links act between the base plate, and the ram to produce the force. The rods that hold the top plate are in tension, while the ram is in compression. The ram must guide the die accurately, and absorb both the axial & radial force.

The second press design under discussion uses a pair of rods to guide a plate with the die mounted to it. The top plate of the press holds the punch, and the links connect directly to the top plate. The guide rods are basically just along for the ride. The links are in tension against the force of the ram. The guide rods handle the radial alignment & force, the ram carries only the axial force and can have generous clearance.

Either design works well. Material selection is important for both designs.

I wonder how much force is actually generated by the press in the pictures, since the link pins appear to be roll pins. A terrible choice for a pivot, I would hope they go through a bushing in the link.

If you plan to build the press in the pictures, I would use something with a fairly high yeild strength in the as shipped condition for the rods. It does not need to be pretty, or ground on the OD. It is just a tie bolt. For solid stock I would use E52100. Cheap, tough & predictable. Or use a decent bolt, with a compression sleeve. You could use a piece of pipe if you have a good bolt inside of it. Through holes in the top plate, tap the bottom plate.

The biggest issue with building something like this is alignment. The hole in the top plate must be concentric with the ram OD, and square to the ram as well. Nothing "floats" in a good forming die setup.

The press with the moving plate & two guides would be easier to keep true. The top plate & moving plate could be bored at the same time to keep everything straight.

Sounds like you guys need to settle on a design first. I understand the desire to make a press given the poor availability, but I would caution against cutting too many corners trying to make it for 10% of what it is worth.

Can someone post pics of the other designs being discussed?

B.

[ANeat]

The press I plan on building is something close to a Walnut Hill, Here is a pic I borrowed from another members post.

[ANeat]

As far as the roll pins in the CSP I believe they go thru a bushing and the links actually ride on needle bearings.

I like the CSP design that was posted by Manleyjt but there is a very long piece in the base serving as the "guide" for lack of a better word. Looks like that would be a little tougher to pull off with what I have to work with.

Something like the Walnut Hill or Mega Mite has the seperate guide attatched to the top of the ram. That requires the polished/ground rods on the sides but I think makes for a stronger setup.