Blackpowder shotshell data

[218bee]

Hey guys, I posted a similar message in "Black Powder" section a few weeks ago and gleaned some info and thought I'd post this here to see if I could get more info/advice. I want to load 12ga shotshells using blackpowder and am having trouble finding much data. Some say use a "square load" meaning same amount by volume powder and shot. Goex website lists two loads for shotshells if I remember something like 82grs with 1oz of shot or 90some grains with 1 1/8oz or something like that. I saw a copy of Fadalas "Black Powder Handbook" but other than frontstuffers really no mention of loads or data for shotshells.
So looking for advice....So far I'm thinking paper hulls over plastic I guess either is ok, but I'm thinking paper. I am planning on using a thin over powder wad and then a felt wad and then 1 ounce of shot. Guessing I need to play with wad height to get nice crimp. I'll use standard 209 primers. Now Goex in their chart recommends 3F Black....I was planning on using 2F (as I have a few cans) but now I don't know.
Anyone have a book with actual data?? Somewhere there has to be some load data. I believe blackpowder was still being loaded into the late teens or early twenties.
So what are your thoughts/ideas. Any experience?? Any sources for data?? Any sources for paper hulls??
Thanks guys

[Muddy Creek Sam]

218Bee,

I load 12 gauge Brass Shells for SASS. I use the Magtech Shells along with about 30 of the Rocky Mountain shells. I load light, Start with a Square load and then back of the powder if you get holes in the pattern. also see http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html I do use 2F Goex.

Sam

[218bee]

Thanks for the link Muddy, what load do you use?? Wondering if ya had to play with wad height. I got some circle fly 1/2" felt wads coming and some overpowder cards. Are the brass shells 2 3/4 or a little shorter? What do ya pay for them? Thanks for the info

[Muddy Creek Sam]

218bee,

The Magtech are about $20 for 25 and are 2.4", I don't load full and glue in the overshot cards with Waterglass (Sodium Silicate) that I get from the Ceramics shop. I currently use 3.1cc of 2f and 7/8 oz of #9 shot. One overpowder, on 1/2" fiber and a overshot card. I started out with 4cc of 2f and 1 1/8 oz of #9 shot, it hurt Katie's hands, she has RA, so I reduced the load and she is much happier. I use the RCBS Cowboy 12 guage Dies and a Lee Classic press.

Sam

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Well 218Bee, How's it progressing?

Sam

[218bee]

Muddy, non loaded yet but I do have some overpowder wads and 1/2" fiber wads to play with. I also picked up 25 Fed paper cases at the trap range I plan on using, for some reason I want to try paper instead of plastic. Just haven't got around to trying anything yet. Weather has been miserable. Not sure where to start as far as powder charge yet but should be soon getting a Lyman black powder reloading guide that is supposed to have shotshell data in it. I plan on using an old Hopkins & Allen falling block 12ga and right now that is in pieces on my workbench. I'll keep ya posted

[Muddy Creek Sam]

218bee,

Try 4cc of 2f to start with 1 1/8 oz of shot. that is the most popular load at SASS matches.

Sam

[218bee]

4cc????

[Muddy Creek Sam]

BlackPowder is measured by volume, I use the lee dippers. Feel free to ask if you have any problems.

Sam

[9.3X62AL]

MCS et al--

Long-time shotshell loader here, never with The Holy Black though. Was wondering......how much (if any) wad column pressure are you placing on the BP charge? I know in the days prior to the plastic wads that ft/lbs of pressure were specified with load data, and to this day the MEC loaders still provide a means to apply that pressure prior to shot drop.

Thanks!

[Muddy Creek Sam]

9.3X62AL,

Must admit, I have never measured it. I was taught to listen for the Crunch of the powder when compressing the powder, overpowder and Spacer wads. Has never let me down.

Sam

[northmn]

Sounds like you are trying to make something complicated out of something quite simple. I have shot game with BP shotshell and loaded them for some time. Now use a double hammer 16 gauge. There are no real conserns with the stuff. 2F is great and what I use. I have also used some of the phoney powders like 777 to use the stuff up. First forget about worrying whether you have 1 ounce, 1 1/8 etc. When using equal volume I set the measure at 80 grains of powder and build up a wad column for a crimp. No real pressure is needed. 80 grains is probably close to 1 1/8 or 1 1/16 depending on shot size as larger shot takes more volume for the same weight. Federal paper sounds fine, but other cases like Gold Medal, Cheddite or Fiochi also work as they are straignt walled and have more volume than AA or Rem. I have used a lot of Fed plastic game loads as they load fine once and I do not need to worry about chasing down empties in the field. 70 grs on a powder measure is about 1 ounce, 90 grains about 1 1/4 etc if you want a reference. 82 grains is 3 drams as there is about 27 grains to a dram. so you can use the old claculation for loads on shell boxes. Seat the wads firmly, you do not need to "crunch" the powder. I like to roll crimp but star crimps also work. Roll crimping permits a little more capacity or works if I cut the cases down a bit if they are once fired star crimps. Have fun. They can be distracting on a very humid still day as the smoke just kind of hangs there.

Northmn

[218bee]

Finally loaded one up today to see how it worked and it was very simple.
I used Fed paper case have an ols Lee 12 hand reloader kit with some shot scoops...one says 1 1/8 oz shot so I filled that with 2F and threw it on my scale to see what charge it was and it was about 75gr on the nose. Poured that in primed case put a 1/8 thick overpowder wad and seated it with the gizmo from the Lee kit, followed with a 1/2 fiber wad and likewise seated that. Filled same scoop with lead shot and poured it in. Took shell to my Mec and used that to crimp it. It is set for 8 point for my plastic shells but seemed ok...powder/wad/shot column was ok as I got a nice looking crimp and shell overall looked good. Stepped outside and she went bang. What fun.
I'll have to shoot it at a pattern board just to see where shes shootin and I've been reading playing with powder charge and wad can help pattern if needed.
I've got three old single shots that are now gonna get some use scaring some guys at the trap range.
Thanks for all the input guys.
Can't wait to outshoot the "high-priced" guys

[Muddy Creek Sam]

I love the smell of Sulfer in the morning!

Sam

[Four Fingers of Death]

I haven't loaded a lot of BP (I haven't loaded a lot of smokless shotshells either, but I've done a power of reloading over the past 37 oddyears) and a load a friend who is a very experienced shotshell reloader worked out for me was a load of 82Gns 2f, a circle fly wad and the same volume of shot with a pinch extra to fill out the crimp better. Worked a treat! This was in 2 3/4" shotshells.

I was going to trim to 2 1/2" etc, but the shotshells I used were old Brownings which I have a sandbag of that they were throwing out at work many years ago and I discard them after firing with the black. I have an old Damascened Barreled hammer gun with 2 1/2" chambers which I will trim cases for that. Maybe I should use the brass magtec cases that I have for that one.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, most of the cowboys here use plastic wads and boiling hot water to remove the plastic fouling at the end of the day. One guy uses wads cut from banana boxes ( I gotta try that-free!).

Paper hulls just plain old don't exisit in Australia any more that I can see. Can they be bought in the states or elsewhere? (preferably just empty hulls)

[218bee]

I cannot find empty paper hulls. My son works at the gun club I belong to and he's trained to pick up for me various "good" shell empties that guys leave behind.So far though I've only got 26 Federal hulls (paper). Once the weather warms hopefully he'll find me more. His side business is putting about 250 AA's in a bag and selling them for 8 bucks. I let him sell the nice ones and I keep the rest and still get quite a few reloads out of em.

[jimb16]

Think about the question, then think about the modern shotgun shell box. The boxes are often marked 2 1/2 dram equivalent. 1 dram of BP is 60 grains. So 2 1/2 drams is 150 grains. That is a pretty bulky load in a 12 guage so a single over powder wad was used with 1 1/4 oz of shot. A good 1 oz load used the same charge with a 1/2 inch cushion (fiber) wad and an over powder wad (1/8 inch). I've been loading those things for years. They are stout, loud and smokey!

[218bee]

Think about the question, then think about the modern shotgun shell box. The boxes are often marked 2 1/2 dram equivalent. 1 dram of BP is 60 grains. So 2 1/2 drams is 150 grains. That is a pretty bulky load in a 12 guage so a single over powder wad was used with 1 1/4 oz of shot. A good 1 oz load used the same charge with a 1/2 inch cushion (fiber) wad and an over powder wad (1/8 inch). I've been loading those things for years. They are stout, loud and smokey!

That does not seem right....so a 12ga 3 dram load would be 180gr of powder.???

[Muddy Creek Sam]

NO, Look on the link from Bullock 1 Dram is 27 grs.

Sam

[218bee]

Yeah I had to look and see.....here is what I found....
1 dram was an apothecary measure of dry weight equal to 1/16oz
1oz = 28.3495 grams
1gram = 15.432 grains so....................
1/16 oz = 1.7718 grams
Thus 1dram = 27.34 grains


Clear as mud