Canadian Ranger "Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables

[robertbank]

Here is a link to the Canadian Ranger Marksmanship Mechanics & Ballistic Tables for the .303 Brit using the #4 Rifle. I have no idea how to convert this to a readable file so it can be copied here but if someone can please do so.


http://rodandgun.sslpowered.com/arti...blications.pdf

Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Bob:

Thanks for that. Might just come in handy. I just finished loading up a bunch of .303 but with 200 gr. cast. Was hoping to shoot today but it is too late now. Next weekend!

It is too large in its PDF format but maybe converted to jpeg or something would work. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for the link.

Longbow

[wills]

Bob:

Thanks for that. Might just come in handy. I just finished loading up a bunch of .303 but with 200 gr. cast. Was hoping to shoot today but it is too late now. Next weekend!

It is too large in its PDF format but maybe converted to jpeg or something would work. I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for the link.

Longbow

If you figure out how to convert a pdf to a jpeg, please let us know how its done.

[longbow]

wills:

By using the "Snapshot Tool" in Acrobat Reader, you can copy a page at a time and paste it into a graphics program like Photoshop (I use GIMP which is open source). The file can then be saved as any standard graphics file like jpeg, tiff, bitmap, etc. The resolution isn't great but it is quite readable. File size is 87kb per page so postable on Cast Boolits.

Also, using the same tool you can copy and paste into Word but resolution is no better.

Printing and scanning is likely the best so I will do that tomorrow.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Thanks Longbow I very much appreciate you doing that.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

I noticed the bullet drop table is for 174 grain FMJ, while the Wind drift table is for 174 gr FMJBT.
The FMJBT would have to be MkVIIIz, and the FMJ may be MkVIIz which is what I've been told the Canadian Rangers are being issued.
Wind Drift for the Mk8 bullet would likely be a great deal less than for the MVII bullet.

I've heard that the Mk8 bullet, intended for precision long range indirect fire from medium machineguns, was prefered by British Snipers when using the .303, but that its use in rifles was restricted to emergencies when MkVII was not available due to its much higher chamber pressure.

I have a PDF of the "Shoot to Live" book saved to documents, and a similarly titled book on US training in combat pistol craft.

[robertbank]

The Canaduian Rangers are now issued the followng:

IVI197K 3 -03 BallMK8Z Cartridges
IVI04F16-02 Soft Point Cartridges

The codes are right from two boxes.

The tables are meant to get the shooter on paper as indicated.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

The Canaduian Rangers are now issued the followng:

IVI197K 3 -03 BallMK8Z Cartridges
IVI04F16-02 Soft Point Cartridges

The codes are right from two boxes.

The tables are meant to get the shooter on paper as indicated.

Take Care

Bob

Interesting.
I'd heard only Dominion manufacture Ammunition was being issued and that with the flat based bullet. But at that time they still had Old Stock ammunition in large quantity.
Recently I've heard that supplies of UK and Canadian No.4 rifles had become in short supply so Pakistan Ordnance Factory No.4 rifles were being issued.
With known problems of use of the Boat Tail Mk8 bullet in bores eroded by even a few hundred rounds of Cordite, and its inability to bump up sufficiently to fill the grooves of the too common oversized bores, I would have thought MkVIIIz ammunition to be the least suitable for general issue.

[robertbank]

There isn't much of the old Dominion stuff around anymore. All the stuff the Rangers get here is IVI. The rifles are pretty much worn out with the odd good one still around. Rumour has it they will go to the .308 using the Remington bolt gun. Maybe a while as most of defense spending is now goiing to fund our participation in Afghanistan. As for rifles I have seen some Brit made guns but mostly Longbranch still.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

There isn't much of the old Dominion stuff around anymore. All the stuff the Rangers get here is IVI. The rifles are pretty much worn out with the odd good one still around. Rumour has it they will go to the .308 using the Remington bolt gun. Maybe a while as most of defense spending is now goiing to fund our participation in Afghanistan. As for rifles I have seen some Brit made guns but mostly Longbranch still.

Take Care

Bob

Well I would make a guess that while the .303 rifles remained in only limited use once the 7.62 was adopted, the numbers of Vickersguns, and Brenguns still in reserve stores would require that MVIIIz remain in production for awhile longer than the MkVII or MkVIIz.
India still lists the MkVIIz in their Military products section, though I didn't See MkVIIIz when I looked last.
India doesn't seem to have much truck with NATO military establishments, though they use the 7.62 and manufacture their own equivalents of NATO ammunition types.

Sweden uses a Winchester Model 70 in .30/06 for its arctic patrols and may have a few M1917 rifles still in inventory, both being commonly called Springfields after the cartridge type.

It would be neat if Canada chose a new made repro of the Model 70 range rifles with provision for stripper clip loading, and chambered in 7.62.
A military style stock with handguards made from a temperature insensitive synthetic, if there is such a thing) would make for a handsome and practical woodsmans rifle. Make it in Stainless and the rifles should stand up to many decades of use in the arctic.

If the Australian redesigned No.4 proves to be a durable rifle and can hold up to the hottest heavy bullet .308 bear and moose loads that would be a good replacement as well, especially if given a tough synthetic stock and stainless barrel.
I might even prove to be recruit proof, and certainly easier to maintain than the Winchester or Remington designs.

There was a reported accident involving a European clone of MkVIIIz proving to be far too hot for the No.4 rifles, blowing out the bolthead of at least one, and with a vague remark about sprung No.1 action bodies.
From the sparse info in that warning it appears the bullet used was intended for a 7.62X54R long range MG load.

Most seem to believe that LMG loads are always safe for Infantry rifles in the same caliber, but its often a one way street, the Infantry ball being useful in the LMG but specialized LMG cartridges sometimes generate much higher pressures than are strictly safe for the Infantry rifles. The heavier Long range and AP loads may not blow up a rifle in good condition on the first shot, but can cause lug setback and increasing headspace, or open up internal fissures in an old barrel.

The No.4 has a bit more margin for safety than the No.1, but the MkVIIIz generates pressures in excess of the 18.5 Long Ton proof mark, and can't be good for the action in the long run.

Higher pressures due to extreme hot climate is unlikely in Canada, so thats in their favor.
Some lots of MkVIIIz in use by Vickers Guns in the heat of the Middle East has been reported to give flattened primers and erased headstamps, along with an increase in velocity.

One thing to be sure of is not to let the ammunition get wet before chambering a round. Rain water gathered at the case mouth forms an incompressable sheath preventing the neck from releasing the upset bullet and sealing the throat at the same time, this is known to have caused damage to Enfield No.1 MkIII rifles on shooting ranges, even with standard MkVII pressures, sometimes cracking the lefthand side of the No.1 action body. I suspect these fractured at the rivet holes for the charger guide.

[robertbank]

From talking to the local Sargeant IF and I emphasize If the Rangers got to a Remington in .308 I suspect it willb be an off the shelf sporter. The guys in the Artic use their #4's for hunting so it would make sense. That is one reason why they are issued soft points now for their #4's. Around here it is for bear protection.

Duirng WW11 a lot of the BC Rangers along the coast were issued Win 94's in 30-30. You see the odd one come up now and then for sale on our gun forums. The Rangers at the end of the war could buy them for $5.00. Mind you in the mid 50's you could buy Longbranch and Jungle Carbines for $9.95 either surplus or newly never issued at the local stores in Edmonton.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

From talking to the local Sargeant IF and I emphasize If the Rangers got to a Remington in .308 I suspect it willb be an off the shelf sporter. The guys in the Artic use their #4's for hunting so it would make sense. That is one reason why they are issued soft points now for their #4's. Around here it is for bear protection.

Duirng WW11 a lot of the BC Rangers along the coast were issued Win 94's in 30-30. You see the odd one come up now and then for sale on our gun forums. The Rangers at the end of the war could buy them for $5.00. Mind you in the mid 50's you could buy Longbranch and Jungle Carbines for $9.95 either surplus or newly never issued at the local stores in Edmonton.

Take Care

Bob

Like the DCM selling M1 Carbines for $20 USD in the 1960's.
I can remember decent if worn SMLEs selling for $12.95 at local discount stores as late as the early 70's, and NIB No.5 carbines going for $35.

I've heard that some US bases in Alaska kept .300 Winchester Magnum Model 70's or Model 700 to deal with roaming Brown Bear that posed a threat.
A company I once worked for had a crated shipment of officers club furniture which had been put together for an Airforce base in Turkey. The furniture was upholstered in antelope skins from hundreds of the animals culled because they kept running across the runways endangering aircraft.
The Base was closed down before the furniture could be shipped, I never found out where it ended up.

The MkVII bullet is quite a deadly mankiller, but I would say that it breaks up too easy to give the necessary penetration for handling a large bear.
I've seen a film clip of an Eskimo, probably a Ranger) downing a charging Polar Bear with a No.4, firing rapidly from the hip at spitting distance, probably no more than 25 yards. An impressive display of fire power, the shots so close together it almost sounded like a greasegun. I guess having a polar Bear charging you would speed up reaction time.

[BruceB]

IVI was making .303 ball ammo as late as the early '90s, and I was given several cases of it which I fired in my personal Bren LMG. This stuff was loaded with nitro-cellulose (IMR-type) powder.

Canadian forces used the same ammunition in both the Bren and the service rifle (#4 Mk 1 and following Marks). The 8z ammo was supposed to be issued to Vickers units, but I never served with that gun so am uncertain about the usage in Canada. Our range days typically embraced both the Bren and the rifle, and both weapons were fired with ammunition from the same cases. Using a different loading in the two main weapons of the infantry section (squad) would add unnecessary complication. It was SOP that when the LMG was in action, the empty magazines were cycled through the section and reloaded by the soldiers from their own rifle ammunition supplies.

During my years in the Northwest Territories, I knew a goodly number of Rangers. They originally began as an almost-"normal" militia unit, and on at least one occasion they soundly 'defeated' a paratroop attack on the Yellowknife airport by the Princess Patricia's Regiment from Edmonton. Naturally, a fine beer bust followed the 'battle' and many war stories were exchanged.

Later on the Rangers became a largely native organization tasked with simply keeping their eyes open during regular hunting and fishing activities in the Arctic. They were issued a #4 Rifle EACH YEAR, and the rifles were written-off when issued because of the abuse they took...salt water in the bottom of a canoe or kayak etc will eat up rifles in short order. It was a cheap and expedient method for Canada to "maintain sovereignty" in the Arctic by showing the flag as an organized military unit...however dis-organized they are in reality (and they are!).

[robertbank]

Things have changed somewhat over the years. The Rangers get quite a bit more support than they did back in the 60's and early 70's. It varies of course but now they seem to be a bit more of a a priority. Differs from one community to another as you would expect. Whnile they still get the 8Z Ball issued the soft points are the choice of most units for the reasons you mentioned.

Last year for instance they ran a patrol from Kitimat, BC on the Coast to Churchill, Manitoba by Ski Doo. One of our guys took part in it. HMCS Calgary brought them up from Victoria and landed them in Kitimat. I think it was more of a PR thing to raise the awareness of the Rangers.

IVI is still making ammo for the Forces. Good stuff really. I wish they would make and sell it into the civilian market but they don't.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

So long as the rifle in use hasn't had much if any Cordite propllent ammo put through it accuracy with the MkVIIIz ammunition should be good, with better long range performance than a flat base bullet.
Since temperatures are on the low side up North excessive pressures would be less of a problem.
The warning posted on the European Mk8 equivalent ammo did say they believed that the ammo had been worked up in a cold climate and its use in a warmer environment likely caused higher than expected pressures.

The only things I've heard about the POF manufacture rifles being brought into Canada for Ranger use indicate these were mostly in good condition.

A quick search suggests that Industries Valcartier Inc. took over the old Dominion arsenal to manufacture ammunition for military contracts. The .303 ammo would then be basically the same as Dominion other than the headstamp.

Sounds like the No.4 rifles were issued more because they were relatively cheap and expendable than anything else.

[robertbank]

Well we had a ton of them left over from WW11 and Korea. They were issued initially because that was the rifle in use at the time by the Cdn Army. The Win 94's were issued on the West Coast primarily because all the Longbranch Production was needed for those serving over in Europe. From what I understand the government has fewer and fewer serviceable rifles so it is just inevitable at some point the Rangers will transition over to a rifle of more modern design. AFAIK it will be a bolt gun in .308 with the Remington the most likely candidate but who knows. When iit comes to government procurement it will come down to cost over function I am sure.

When our Army went to the FN FAL all the old #4's were either put in stores or sold off to the public. In retrospect they might have retained more of the LE's in storage but that is another story. I suspect the replacement of the #4's is a pretty low priority right now with everything else that is going on in the world.

Take Care

Bob

[ktw]

If you figure out how to convert a pdf to a jpeg, please let us know how its done.

Adobe Acrobat (the editor, not the free reader) will convert pdf to jpeg.

File size of a jpeg is usually significantly larger than the file size of a pdf. pdf is usually a better format if you want to distribute multiple pages of something like a brochure or book (as a downloadble link). Jpeg only becomes more desirable if you need to post an image to a forum or web page.

-ktw

[wills]

Adobe Acrobat (the editor, not the free reader) will convert pdf to jpeg.

File size of a jpeg is usually significantly larger than the file size of a pdf. pdf is usually a better format if you want to distribute multiple pages of something like a brochure or book (as a downloadble link). Jpeg only becomes more desirable if you need to post an image to a forum or web page.

-ktw

I don’t have editor. I have Adobe Acrobat Elements 6.0, and it makes pdf’s just fine, but that’s all it does. Based on what longbow said

By using the "Snapshot Tool" in Acrobat Reader, you can copy a page at a time and paste it into a graphics program like Photoshop (I use GIMP which is open source). The file can then be saved as any standard graphics file like jpeg, tiff, bitmap, etc. The resolution isn't great but it is quite readable. File size is 87kb per page so postable on Cast Boolits.

I can probably copy onto paint and save as a jpg. I tried using Ifranview to do a conversion, but it wont open a pdf.

[ktw]

I don’t have editor. I have Adobe Acrobat Elements 6.0, and it makes pdf’s just fine, but that’s all it does. Based on what longbow said I can probably copy onto paint and save as a jpg. I tried using Ifranview to do a conversion, but it wont open a pdf.

I have Adobe Editor.

If these are too small pm me an email address and I will send them to you as an attachement. They are 350-450K apiece.

-ktw

[30calflash]

This has some great info on the 303 in general. I'm interested in what arsenal loaded ammo should not be used in a No1 Mk3. If there is anyone with that info it would be greatly appreciated.
Imagine my surprise at seeing the cover of Col. Johnson's book shown with the charts as I've been reading a copy of it over the last week. Great book on teaching marksmanship with the No. 4 rifles.
Again, thanks for the info.