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Thread: Lee 405 HB 45-70

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Lee 405 HB 45-70

    I have a Lee 405 Gr. 45-70 mold that I have been using in my Trapdoor and Browning 1886 45-70 with some success. However, I have been reading of some folks liking the Lee HB 405 Gr. Is there an advantage to using the Hollow Base Boolit? What does the hollow base bullet offer over the solid base bullet. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Doc Highwall's Avatar
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    The hollow base was developed by the U.S. Govt for the trapdoor to seal the bore when shooting Black Powder. They the Govt found it was not needed for the 500 gr 1881 bullet. If you are going to shoot only smokeless you can shoot a flat base.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Say Doc I always read the same thing about the 405 being HB but the 500 PB.
    I spent some time in the area of fort Buford and fort Union on the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers.
    I have a nice collection of boolits from that area. I have both the 45/70 boolits 405 and 500, and the 50/450, and the 44 and 45 cal pistol boolits and all are hollow base.
    I always thought as I had read that the Lyman 457125 was the Gov boolit but other than being round nose there is little resemblance.
    The Lee 405 HB is very close accept that being a nose pour there is a little meplate where the Gov is round.
    There are a few custom designs that come very close to the 500. I have an NEI mold for the 45 Gov that pretty much pegs the nose and bands and grooves but it is a base pour so is a PB.
    I once saw a huge arsenal mold for the 500 and it too was a base pour so also a PB.
    Maybe there was a change on the 500 at some point to PB and the ones I found pre date that change.
    Another interesting thing with all of them is that the bottoms of the lube grooves are knurled.
    Interesting stuff to look at.
    BIC/BS

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    The Lee 405 HB design was a joint effort by Spence Wolf and Lee to duplicate the Gov design. Mr wolf was working on a book called Loading the the Original 45/70 trapdoor.
    What he wanted to do was as closely as possible with available components duplicate the original Gov loads. His goal was to shoot the trapdoor as it was originally intended and to have the sights that were developed for the Gov loadings to work with his ammo.
    At the time he was the only source of the molds.
    After he passed away Lee made the design a regular item. I think Mrs. Wolf still has the book available. If anyone shoots a trapdoor they should have this book. Just filled with good info.
    BIC/BS

  5. #5
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    Bullshop, you are right about J.S.Wolf and his book Reloading Cartridges for the Trapdoor Springfield. What he and his wife did was search the Govt Arsenal records and found that the Govt found in their testing that the 405 gr bullet had to have a hollow base in order to work and the 500 gr offered enough resistance that it did not need a hollow base. Another interesting thing in the book is that the 45/70/500 with the 1881 Govt bullet was loaded with smokeless powder. I had thought that the 30-40 was the first. This book is a must have for anyone that wants to load the Trapdoor with black powder, they did their home work on this book.

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    the HB 405 solved my accy problems with a well worn old trapdoor .45-70.

    Went from minute of pizza pan at 100 to 3" at 100 immediately.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

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    Boolit Buddy Greg in Malad's Avatar
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    LEMI,
    I use this mould in a browning 1885, as a hollow base it shot below average groups. I filed off the hollow base plug, turning it into a flat base. It now weighs 420 grains and shoots one hole groups at 50yds.

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    Greg in Malad, is that with smokeless or black powder?

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    I thought the hollow base was to give a longer skirt and had no intention of being a sealant. The longer skirt was to give stability. Any thoughts?

  10. #10
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    No it was to seal the bore. The LEE is a copy of the Govt bullet as far as the hollow base. The original bullet for the Trapdoor Springfield was 405 grs for both the rifle and carbine, and a reduced charge of 55 grs was used in the carbine to reduce recoil with the extra space in the cartridge taken up with fillers. In the late 1870's The Govt wanted to improve on the ballistics of the 45-70-405 that they started looooog range testing with a 500 gr bullet at 2 1/2 miles at Sandy Hook and the bullet was to become the 1881 500 gr. SAECO and Paul Jones both make a bullet close to it, closer then the Lyman 457125 as far as to the shape. The greater weight ( sectional density ) of the 500 gr bullet with black powder did not require it to have a hollow base and only the 405 gr requires it with black powder. So unless you are going to shoot black powder with your 45-70 you will not need the hollow base.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    With any set twist rate making the projectile longer makes it less stable.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy Rick459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemi View Post
    I have a Lee 405 Gr. 45-70 mold that I have been using in my Trapdoor and Browning 1886 45-70 with some success. However, I have been reading of some folks liking the Lee HB 405 Gr. Is there an advantage to using the Hollow Base Boolit? What does the hollow base bullet offer over the solid base bullet. Thanks in advance.
    for me only this
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59371

  13. #13
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    The government bullets except those loaded in the field were swagged not cast. The 500 gr bullets that are sometimes found near old forts do not have hollow bases but do have a slight depression in the middle. This was on the government punch in the swagging press as part of the weight control for the projectiles for uniformity. I use the HB lee mold in trapdoor rifles as it ensures a good fit without messing around with bullets larger than .459" The trapdoors were all supposed to be .451 bore and . 458 at the muzzle but most are not. The grooves are also cut with an increasing depth from muzzle to breach so at the breach the groove depth is supposed to be .01" and .004 at the muzzle. This was to give fouling a place to go and let the rifle be fired more times before you can't load it without cleaning. The army found out that the 405 gr bullet was inadequate as for accuracy at longer ranges. The tactics of the day were for soldiers to start firing vollies at long range on command to thin out the enemy before they got close. The army found that their rifles were inferior to many foreign ones that they tested for long range accuracy. They developed the 500 gr long rang bullet load for that reason and to get better combustion of the black powder as well.

  14. #14
    In Remembrance



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    Not wishing to be conrtary or an internet know-it-all, but the hollow base on the 405 grain Gov't bullet was put there to give the correct weight to the specific bullet profile, not to expand and fill the bore. If you look at it you will see that it is entierly inadequate to act like the Minie bullet. Obturation of the soft (one part tin to 50 lead) bullet and the 70 grain charge of black powder is more than sufficient to accomplish this.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    curator, what I have read is with the 45-70 that because the charge was heavily compressed that it caused it's own set of problems. One problem was caused when they went from inside Bennett priming with two flash holes to a single flash hole that the charge would not always ignite and gave poor ignition. This was over come by enlarging the single flash hole. The 45-70 with it's compressed charge of 70 grains of powder gave to within 25 to 30 FPS of the British 450 with 85 grains of powder. Yes you are right that the bullets were swaged with a slight hollow base, but the Govt found that with this light for caliber bullet still shot better with the hollow base. J.S.Wolf in his book gave a lot of data that came right from the Springfield Armory including drawings and a lot of other data. It was his disappointment with his hand loads vs firing original black powder that led him to writing the book, and as a direct result he convinced LEE to produce the 405 gr HB bullet mould. We are all lucky that people like him and others on this forum are trying to promote and document the sport of CAST BOOLIT shooting. I am always looking to find more data as to why some things work and some don't.

  16. #16
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    My point on the hollow base issue is that the small hollow in the Lee 459-405HB has no appreciable effect on bullet expansion or obturation and that it was not placed there to do so. Hollow base "minie ball" type bullets are very prone to severe base expansion as the bullet leaves the muzzle with serious effects on accuracy. Ask North-South Skirmishers about "blown bases." The much higher pressures encountered with the .45-70 Gov't cartridge, as compared to the .58 caliber Springfield muzzle loading musket precludes the use of hollow based bullets.

    I too have read Spencer's book on loading the .45-70. It was his attempt to replicate the ignition of the Bennet and Frankfort arsenal primers that lead him to open up the flash holes on his boxer-primed cases. This seems to go against the current fad of placing a thin tissue-paper wad between primer and powder charge to reduce the power of the primer explosion. Spencer's book is a real good starting point for anyone shooting a trapdoor Springfield .45-70 with black powder, but the long range black powder cartridge shooters have refined his approach considerably.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    NickSS
    Very interesting. I though the 400 and 500's in my collection had the same base cavity.
    I just went and looked and as you say the 400 has a deeper cavity.
    When we lived in Fairview ND/MT we would hunt the National grasslands in ND along the Yellowstone river. There are many large dog towns we would hunt. It was interesting to find these old fired milsurp boolits lying about in the dog towns.
    Made me wonder how they got there. I could just imagine some soldier plunking away at PD's and thinking , "and I get paid for this!!!"
    I guess if it were me back then and given a rifle and ammo and put in the same setting I too would have been plunking away at PD's with a trapdoor.
    Blessings
    BIC/BS

  18. #18
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    The hollow bases on both the 405 gr M1873 bullet and the M1882 bullet are there to regulate the weight of bullet while maintaining the outside dimensions. The fact of this is easily found in the Army's manuals for Springfields. The information is found on the descriptions to the drawings of the bullets in the manual that I have; The 1898 Springfiield Manual. This information is also in Spence Wolf's book where he quotes the manuals descriptions of the M73 and the M82 bullets. The M73 and M82 quote is; "There is a dished cavity in the base of the bullet, sufficient to bring it to its proper weight without affecting it's general form." Thus we see it is not a "hollow base" but a "dished cavity". Regardless of what it is called it was not intended to aide in obturation as was the skirt of a minie bullet. If one looks at how thick the skirts are on the Lee HB bullet compared to a real HB bullets skirts the answer should be obvious.

    The Lee bullet is indeed a cooperative effort between Spence and Lee. It is a very close replicant and shoots well in TDs specifically. I do not size mine down as Spence did as they are much more accurate "as cast" in my original TD with either BP or smokeless loads.

    The arsenal M73 and M82 bullets were swaged.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 12-31-2009 at 02:36 PM.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick459 View Post
    A 1885 45-70 was found under our Christmas tree. I have tried three boolits with various loads: RCBS 405 grain, Lyman 400 grain and the Lee 405 HB. So far the Lee is the winner with a 100 yard 10 shot group at about 1.5" and 6 of them being a single ragged hole. I believe the "flyers" were my contribution. I may strap on a scope for load testing to reduce my contribution from old eyes.

    The RCBS boolit results were very poor and the Lyman results were nearly as good as with the Lee. I am puzzled by the RCBS results.
    Last edited by ph4570; 01-03-2010 at 05:25 PM.
    ph4570

  20. #20
    Boolit Mold
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    Wow, this is a mighty thread and I hope that it becomes a sticky or something because
    I would like to revisit it from time to time.

    Thanks all.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check