Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Tazman1602]

I'm just posting 'cause I'm a Swede Mauser guy and I want to see where it's going. I still have a few of these from the day.

Art

[StarMetal]

Well my next step with both my 6.5 and 25/303 was to use fillers,I have a bottle of Puff-Lon to try with AR 2209 powder,sold in the states as Hodgden 4350,I have already had success with slower powders,AR2217(Hodgden H1000) simply by filling the case up to the top and seating a 225grn boolit over it in my 303's and it does work,the recoil is toey though.Reading through the Puff-Lon website they actually say to use slower powders with reduced loads and fill the case totally full.That sir is the wrong use of the filler. Just a question,what causes the danger?,does trying to squeeze the filler through the neck spike pressures?,I really do agree that slow is better in regards to that.Joe I'm glad you have posted this up,the trouble with the internet we can only talk with words,not face to face. Pat

That's exactly one of the things we don't want to see the reloader do and I'm quite unhappy that it was mentioned. To all who will attempt this procedure behind the scenes, please do not just fill your case up entirely with filler.

To answer your question just what is the danger? For one the filler reduces the capacity of the case. What might be a real mild load of a certain type of powder in the case without any filler, can be a magnum load with the filler. Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler. You're on track with pushing the filler through the bottle neck too.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I'm still trying to figure out how that 130gr flatnosed lovern style bullet @2300 fps shoots flatter than my 140 gr Hornady spire point@ almost 3200 fps! puzzled

Scot,

Next time out I'll shoot at 100 yards first using the normal crosshairs, then I'll shoot the next group using the first mil dot down and give you the measurement between the two. My bullet is definitely not shooting flatter then your spire point. All said in order to hit right above that bull on the jug at 300 yards I only had to use that mil dot. The rifle is sighted in dead center bull at 100 yards.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I would very much like to learn what other people have tried with fillers and what their results were.

I have been using fillers for about 3 years so far with positive results, or at least positive results in my view and no negative results. I am certainly no expert though.

I am sure there are many reasons that people want to use fillers. 100% loading density is one good reason and I have read many comments stating if you want 100% loading density then use a case full of slow burning powder.

True enough but that doesn't address reduced loads. Not everyone wants to shoot full loads all the time.

Also, if the powder is slow burning then wouldn't it act as its own granular filler with unburned powder being rammed past the shoulder and through the neck? I doubt the slow powders completely burn in the cartridge and if that is true then they are no more than a granular filler as the unburned powder exits the cartridge to burn on its way down the barrel.

Another comment was to use black powder as filler but again, if the charge is not completely consumed in the cartridge then the black powder would be an awful lot like COW or other granular fillers as it was compressed going through the shoulder and neck then burning further down the barrel.

Correct me if I am mistaken here.

All in all, I suspect that if there was a lot of friction involved in extruding the filler past the shoulder then brass would stretch at an alarming rate and I haven't seen that.

I welcome corrections, comments ~ or best more information.

Longbow

I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

Joe

[Tazman1602]

You're overrating it Dutch. Yeah it can get you into trouble. What 45 2.1 meant was if you know nothing about it and are going to dive into it, practice on a strong action. It will tell you when you over stepped the limits. A lessor action may not. Now with that out of the way to say you are walking a thin line using it...BALONEY. Both myself, 45 2.1, and others have been blasting away with this technique with many different rifles and calibers. Like I've said before in another post you take your life in your hands everytime you fire a reload you loaded, so in my opinion the technique done correctly (as reloads should be done correctly...no??) it's no more dangerous then a proper reload or factory round. Don't make it sound like a Cobra charmer.

Joe

Ditto. If you have a GOOD quality Swede Action (Gustaf's etc...) it will take an AMAZING amount of pressure before it goes "boom". And that's ALL I'm going to say on the subject 'cause I know a LOT about these actions.................

Art

PS -- Got a Mex 1910 SR in .308...........................................

[303Guy]

HOLY C .... Ummmm..... MOLY! I just turned my back for a few days and .... !

Fun and interesting thread, Joe!

(My interest in the Swede is that I think it is a great caliber!)

Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler ...

I use cotton wool balls as a bore cleaner (as well as a filler) and what happens is the stuff compacts and increases resistance some - a lot, actually. Might be a factor? As for taking up case volume. Not sure since there is a lot of free space between the fibres. Just how tightly is the stuff being packed?

I only use a filler when the expected pressure is lower than starting loads (or at least a lot lower than max!) Careful consideration is given. (The 25-303 would have similar proportions to the Swede, I think). To me the bad about cotton filler is the fire hazzard!

[swheeler]

Scot,

Next time out I'll shoot at 100 yards first using the normal crosshairs, then I'll shoot the next group using the first mil dot down and give you the measurement between the two. My bullet is definitely not shooting flatter then your spire point. All said in order to hit right above that bull on the jug at 300 yards I only had to use that mil dot. The rifle is sighted in dead center bull at 100 yards.

Joe

Let us know where the bullet strikes at 100 yds when using the first dot. It would be interesting to know the 300 yd velocity too, now DON'T shoot your chrony! I know on 270 win with 150 Speer at just under 2850 I had to use the second dot under the crosshair, scope on 9x(highest setting) for 300 yd hits on gong. All I can say is that is fine shooting, and at 221,000 rpm ta boot! RPM threshold, what threshold! These HV, fast twist Swede threads sure are interesting, keep it coming! Scot

[StarMetal]

Let us know where the bullet strikes at 100 yds when using the first dot. It would be interesting to know the 300 yd velocity too, now DON'T shoot your chrony! I know on 270 win with 150 Speer at just under 2850 I had to use the second dot under the crosshair, scope on 9x(highest setting) for 300 yd hits on gong. All I can say is that is fine shooting, and at 221,000 rpm ta boot! RPM threshold, what threshold! These HV, fast twist Swede threads sure are interesting, keep it coming! Scot

Gosh! I better not hit my chronograph after shooting all the small groups. Be my luck of the draw thought. Will have to wait a little while as some really cold nasty weather is here. The forecast doesn't look good but I'll get her done.

Joe

[swheeler]

We're -2 right now and looks like a little powder for the new year, keep the fires stoked.

[PAT303]

That's exactly one of the things we don't want to see the reloader do and I'm quite unhappy that it was mentioned. To all who will attempt this procedure behind the scenes, please do not just fill your case up entirely with filler.

To answer your question just what is the danger? For one the filler reduces the capacity of the case. What might be a real mild load of a certain type of powder in the case without any filler, can be a magnum load with the filler. Think to the powder is not only pushing the bullet it's pushing the filler. You're on track with pushing the filler through the bottle neck too.

Joe

Joe,can you see the problem?.On the Puff-Lon site they have in writing that you MUST fill the case so there is no air gaps,you say we shouldn't,can you see now why people are getting fed up with this.People will try fillers regardless,I was long before the swede threads started and will follow the manufactures instructions,if they are wrong and you are right which way do people go?.I'm after a 200m field rifle load,nothing more. Pat

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, if you are using one mil dot below the crosshair that equals a 10.8" drop from 100 yards or 3.43 min of angle drop.

[longbow]

Joe:

I agree that a slow powder would be somewhat different than a granular filler that packs as the powder is likely more dense and wouldn't pack as solid to seal and keep heat and gas pressure off the boolit base.

However, I do think it would pesent a similar resistance in compressing at the shoulder and squeezing through the neck. Might flow a little better due to large hard "granules" or might compress into a pretty solid lump, hard to say since one can't watch.

The puffy fibrous fillers would be a whole different ball game as they would hold the powder in place at the head of the cartridge but provide room for gas expansion as they compress where a granular filler is effectively removing more case volume so will increase pressure through both reduced volume and extruding filler through the neck.

Also, I have to say that my filler loads have been limited to straight wall cases and .303 British which has a pretty mild shoulder and relatively large neck when compared to 6.5's.

I am not trying to hijack the thread here as I am interested in the 6.5 Swede results and how you get them. We just got onto the filler subject and I am interested and looking to learn. There is a wealth of information in the member's heads here and I am all ears!

Anyway, this is interesting and I hope the info keeps coming!

Longbow

[Bret4207]

Well finally I broke the ice. Now we're talking about doing things with the Swede and some even at high velocity. Just think, the other day a moderator got snotty with me threatening to close this thread...which he may still do out of spite.

Joe

That doesn't help things Joe, leave it alone. You have the floor, use your time wisely.

[StarMetal]

Joe,can you see the problem?.On the Puff-Lon site they have in writing that you MUST fill the case so there is no air gaps,you say we shouldn't,can you see now why people are getting fed up with this.People will try fillers regardless,I was long before the swede threads started and will follow the manufactures instructions,if they are wrong and you are right which way do people go?.I'm after a 200m field rifle load,nothing more. Pat

Think about that Pat. Is there a situation where you can seat the bullet and there's still not an air space? Take it another direction. Fill the case with you Puff-Lon and you're telling me the bullet is just setting atop it? What's gripping the bullet? I'll let you think on that and you post back and tell me what you think.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Some interesting information. I have some clear plastic vials. I put some 860 ball powder in one and the very coarse 5010 in the other. I then topped those with a shot buffer. Then I proceeded to vibrate and tap them. Purpose of the test was to see if the buffer migrated the coarser powder. This question came up among my peers. The results is that it did not, not even in the slightest.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I don't believe slow powders burn completey in the case. I doubt not many powders do.

You asked about the slow burning powder acting like a filler. No, not like the filler we use. It lacks keeping the heat off the bullet and lacks the cushioning.

Joe

People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba.

[StarMetal]

People would be astounded if they ever saw actual powder burn rates in popular length barrels with common loadings. And if it ain't in the case or up the pipe, then it went down range somewhere which means she was burning or attempting to burn the whole way.

I think that full cases of powder do have certain characteristics that act like filler. And as a result I often get good enough results, especially in warmer weather where lube is used up better and remains softer what is left behind.

And with the proper speed powders, my velocities don't change filler or not. That's how I know what the proper powder speed is. As a result, barrel length gives you more powder options too.

Not all filler is the same. The filler I use removes fouling and leaves a stable bore condition for each bullet coming after it. Well, up and until you pass it's capability. Filler isn't an open ended cure all as you do still have to think, compensate, and still deal with limits. Don't cry if your first attempt fails before 4000 fps.

Another advantage is in cold temperatures as it minimizes left over lube in the bore as frozen fouling is harder for a bullet to deal with. It does help in hunting season for me for that first shot that might be a week since you fired the fouling shot before season opened and now you are below freezing. I know people say to thin lube, but they still stiffen dramatically.

A stable bore condition is how I get to the promised land. And a light coat of relaid plastic lube can prevent metal to metal friction too. Sorta like slightly harder Carnauba.

Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I know lube is of interest to you and your tough testing of it really circles around cold weather use. One of my peers has been pushing me about my soap lube in cold temps. Well finally winter is here in TN and it's cold. I have been out doing some limited shooting with three different rifles and can happily report that so far the lube is holding up just dandy in cold weather...so far. I'll see what it does when it gets extremely cold.

Joe

Soap might work with filler especially. But I do know that beeswax and petroleum products as well as most of the common additives thicken or freeze. Fat does too. I got stuck cleaning the freezer this year before season for that trial run.

People often misunderstand my criticism of lubes in cold weather. It's strictly for the first shot of which may be out there a ways. Many lubes will work well after the barrel has been warmed. And if you are shooting low velocities and harder than you need slugs, lube is less of an issue to observe what I test for.

Let's see what soap does. But I gotta tell ya that I've thrown a bar or two (along with the fat) in the freezer since you told me and I wasn't impressed enough to try it. So go for it.

Look, my test load for lube is my 150 grain LBT, 56 grains of RL19 in the 06 at 2600 fps. Above 80 degrees without filler it shoots like a champ. By 50 degrees it's a pie plate killer without filler. Add .5cc of ol #47 and back she comes down to about 10 and then things turn again. So that is what I have been testing lubes with to set my standards. I set the gun and ammo out for at least an hour and then shoot 1 hour between shots for group.

Not telling you how to do it or what to use. Just explaining to folks that think I am too far out there already so they will understand.

[StarMetal]

Soap might work with filler especially. But I do know that beeswax and petroleum products as well as most of the common additives thicken or freeze. Fat does too. I got stuck cleaning the freezer this year before season for that trial run.

People often misunderstand my criticism of lubes in cold weather. It's strictly for the first shot of which may be out there a ways. Many lubes will work well after the barrel has been warmed. And if you are shooting low velocities and harder than you need slugs, lube is less of an issue to observe what I test for.

Let's see what soap does. But I gotta tell ya that I've thrown a bar or two (along with the fat) in the freezer since you told me and I wasn't impressed enough to try it. So go for it.

Look, my test load for lube is my 150 grain LBT, 56 grains of RL19 in the 06 at 2600 fps. Above 80 degrees without filler it shoots like a champ. By 50 degrees it's a pie plate killer without filler. Add .5cc of ol #47 and back she comes down to about 10 and then things turn again. So that is what I have been testing lubes with to set my standards. I set the gun and ammo out for at least an hour and then shoot 1 hour between shots for group.

Not telling you how to do it or what to use. Just explaining to folks that think I am too far out there already so they will understand.

Bass,

First off you can freeze anything and make it hard if it's cold enough. Now for you test. I think my concoction of Ivory soap, beeswax, and Castor oil, especially after it's been cooked, is a different thing entirely they you just freezing soap. I'm about ready to make another batch and I'll have to send you some. I'm also thinking, since I have the ingredients, of making the soap lube but substituting the beeswas with micro crystalline wax.

Bass look at this link: http://www.starbrite.com/productdeta...&ProductSSCat=

Notice the temperature rating of the grease. Also isn't the name ironic??

Joe

[StarMetal]

Bass,

One more: http://www.polysi.com/dow%20corning%...C%2033%20M.pdf

notice the temperatures in the chart and also notice that most of those are lithium soaps.

Joe