Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[rummy64]

Thanks! The gun is probably more capable of a shooter than I am. I'm hoping to get a chance to use it on woodchuchs with some light boolits this summer. I definitely want to work up a good deer load for it too. I live in town, and therefore belong to a local rifle range.
So I'm limited to 200m. But I'm going to work on getting it dialed in to that distance.
The bore was not as clean as I thought it was. I got a lot of **** out of it when I cleaned it.
I'm guessing the accuracy will improve with a cleaner bore. Not that I was dissapionted in it to begin with!

[StarMetal]

Thanks! The gun is probably more capable of a shooter than I am. I'm hoping to get a chance to use it on woodchuchs with some light boolits this summer. I definitely want to work up a good deer load for it too. I live in town, and therefore belong to a local rifle range.
So I'm limited to 200m. But I'm going to work on getting it dialed in to that distance.
The bore was not as clean as I thought it was. I got a lot of **** out of it when I cleaned it.
I'm guessing the accuracy will improve with a cleaner bore. Not that I was dissapionted in it to begin with!

Practice will only make you better.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I am just hoping to find a load for my 260 Rem with Lyman's 266673 150 gr FN. The only other 6.5mm I have is the 6.5mm BR in both rifle and pistol for my Encore that I will also start to work with as soon as spring comes.

[StarMetal]

I am just hoping to find a load for my 260 Rem with Lyman's 266673 150 gr FN. The only other 6.5mm I have is the 6.5mm BR in both rifle and pistol for my Encore that I will also start to work with as soon as spring comes.

How does the nose of that bullet fit in your bore at the muzzle? Also what velocity are you wanting to shoot it at?

Joe

[cbrick]

The SAECO #264 140 gr 6.5 mentioned in this thead is an outstanding bullet. I bought this mould for a custom 6.5 BR XP that I had. Another really good boolit is the RCBS 140 GR 6.5. The main difference between the two is the length of the driving band bearing surface. The SAECO bearing surface is a bit longer and in the custom XP's short chamber had to be seated deeper (below the shoulder).

This is the SAECO, sorry . . . no photo of the RCBS but it is very similair.



Rick

[NHlever]

Well I had to look to make sure I posted that and I did, but will repeat it for you. The first mil dot under the normal crosshair. I'd estimate maybe a 2-3 inch drop in the bullet from the 100 yard setting. I was quite surprised how flat it shot. I'll have to work up a load with BaBore's remake of the Lyman 266469 and see what it does as it's a tad heavier and longer for a even higher BC then the Kurtz. Remember that Kurtz is pretty much a flat nose.

I knew I had something at the shot because the jug literally exploded and kind of disappeared at the shot. I was expecting to see slight movement and some water spray.

Joe

Let's see, with a ballistic coefficuient of .560, and a velocity of 3100 fps the bullet will drop 9.7 inches at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero. That is one monster cast boolit load you have there for sure. It's off my charts! That my friend is a secret worth keeping........ I don't need it anyway.

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, just got the mould I will be casting some soon so I will have time to work on the mould if I have too. Hopefully I will not have to lap it or beagle it to get the dimensions I need. I spent this year working on my 308 Win and got great results with it at 100-200 yards. I am going to do a little tweaking at 300 yards next year and should be done with it. This is a Browning 1885 Lowwall in 260 Rem that I am going to make the load for.

[StarMetal]

Let's see, with a ballistic coefficuient of .560, and a velocity of 3100 fps the bullet will drop 9.7 inches at 300 yards with a 100 yard zero. That is one monster cast boolit load you have there for sure. It's off my charts! That my friend is a secret worth keeping........ I don't need it anyway.

Well I'm positive my load doesn't shoot like the one you just described.

Joe

[StarMetal]

The SAECO #264 140 gr 6.5 mentioned in this thead is an outstanding bullet. I bought this mould for a custom 6.5 BR XP that I had. Another really good boolit is the RCBS 140 GR 6.5. The main difference between the two is the length of the driving band bearing surface. The SAECO bearing surface is a bit longer and in the custom XP's short chamber had to be seated deeper (below the shoulder).

This is the SAECO, sorry . . . no photo of the RCBS but it is very similair.



Rick

cbrick,

That Saeco is the only bullet that will fit my 6.5 Grendel. The freebore is about 1/16th inch. The nose on that Saeco just slides into my bore. It's as though it were made for the Grendel and it shoots just fantastic out of it.

Joe

[Doc Highwall]

StarMetal, what powder did you use in your 6.5mm BR and 6.5mm Grendel. Just trying to shorten the learning curve and not reinvent the wheel.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal, what powder did you use in your 6.5mm BR and 6.5mm Grendel. Just trying to shorten the learning curve and not reinvent the wheel.

Doc,

In the Swede I'm using 4350. The other cartridges are the 6.5 Grendel that I shoot it from my AR15, and the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. I use H4198 in the 6.5 Grendel, and I use 4895 in the 6.5x54MS. I have a 260 Rem also and I use mostly 4895 in it. Soon as my supplier gets in some powders I'm going to be testing another powder.

Joe

[geargnasher]

45 2.1

Almost everything has been posted on how to make this run, if you take the time to read my back posts on accuracy and the 6.5 Swede. The part that hasn't been is about the use of FILLER. Nothing will be posted about that other than what all the reloading manuals say about fillers, "use filler only as directed". If you go thru the old posts here you won't find too much said about fillers, except those used in low velocity loads. Nothing much is posted about high velocity use. That is an area where you can goof up very easily. If any "expert" here wants to post on how to use various fillers for high velocity use and assume responsibility for his actions, then please do so. I don't think you'll see that though.

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]




--------------------------------------

Have I just managed to miss the reading, or has there been a distinct shortage of good, safe, published methods of filler use?

Sure, like many of you, I've dinked around with cornmeal/COW and Shotshell filler over a tamped cotton tuft when using mild Unique loads in cavernous .45/70 cases and .30-30 and many others with cast, but when it comes to bottlenecked cases and higher charges of slow powders, (where one can really get into deep poo quickly with pressure), research either isn't happening with qualified folks or they aren't talking/writing.

I am to the point of experimenting with filler in .30-'06, 270, and the Swede trying to get decent accuracy and huntable velocity/trajectory with SOFT boolits and SLOW powders, just seems I can't get there any other way, but I really don't want to make my bride a widow over a hobby. I've tried Dacron in the '06, but wasn't convinced that the amount I was using helped.

I'm convinced that longer pressure curves with slower powder and a nice shock absorber (filler) is the ticket for HV cast in most any rifle where one wants softer expandable boolits, plus ES (and thus accuracy) would surely be improved by the positive location of the powder charge in the case the same way it usually is with the faster powders.

Larry, if you or anyone else can shed some light on some guidelines for the use of granular fillers in bottleneck cartridges I would be eternally grateful.

Gear

BTW Joe, good shot on the jug. I only dream I could get fast enough with my Karlina to shoot that flat to 300. I can do it all day with J-words and the right brass, but so far not with cast.

[felix]

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

[StarMetal]

[/I]

Perhaps you would care to cut through the chaff and say what the filler is (material, substance, etc. is all I'm asking)?

I do not claim to be an "expert" but I can measure pressure accurately in 2 different excellent condition 6.5 Swede milsurp barrels. One is original on my M38 and the other is with a new Swede replacement barrel on a SR Mexican M98. With the actual filler known I could conduct a series of tests to determine the pressures involved and how they climb. I could use several powders and different amounts of the filler.

If you don't want to post the info here a PM would do nicely. Thanks for the information and cooperation, it is very much appreciated.

Larry Gibson

--------------------------------------

Have I just managed to miss the reading, or has there been a distinct shortage of good, safe, published methods of filler use?

Sure, like many of you, I've dinked around with cornmeal/COW and Shotshell filler over a tamped cotton tuft when using mild Unique loads in cavernous .45/70 cases and .30-30 and many others with cast, but when it comes to bottlenecked cases and higher charges of slow powders, (where one can really get into deep poo quickly with pressure), research either isn't happening with qualified folks or they aren't talking/writing.

I am to the point of experimenting with filler in .30-'06, 270, and the Swede trying to get decent accuracy and huntable velocity/trajectory with SOFT boolits and SLOW powders, just seems I can't get there any other way, but I really don't want to make my bride a widow over a hobby. I've tried Dacron in the '06, but wasn't convinced that the amount I was using helped.

I'm convinced that longer pressure curves with slower powder and a nice shock absorber (filler) is the ticket for HV cast in most any rifle where one wants softer expandable boolits, plus ES (and thus accuracy) would surely be improved by the positive location of the powder charge in the case the same way it usually is with the faster powders.

Larry, if you or anyone else can shed some light on some guidelines for the use of granular fillers in bottleneck cartridges I would be eternally grateful.

Gear

BTW Joe, good shot on the jug. I only dream I could get fast enough with my Karlina to shoot that flat to 300. I can do it all day with J-words and the right brass, but so far not with cast.[/QUOTE]

Ian,

I have more then one rifle that shoots cast kind of like jacketed. Below is a picture of a five shot 300 yard group with my 6.5 Grendel AR15. This rifle too wears a Burris mil dot scope but the high power is 14.5. It too is also sighted in dead on at 100 yards. The bullet is the Saeco 140 grain and it too is moving about the same speed that the Kurtz does in my Swede. I set a big cardboard up with white papers on it with the aiming reference. Been a while back and I don't remember which mil dot I used for the group, but I'm thinking it two was the first one below the main cross hair. Before we get to the picture my 6.5x54MS has a load with the Kurtz that I'm shooting a tad faster then the load for the Swede. I only have a 3x9 scope on it, but I'm positive I can hit that jug with it as it's a pretty good shooter. I cut the group out of the cardboard for the Grendel and saved it. This is it below:


This is nothing compared to what the boys on the Grendel forum are doing with jacketed and their Grendels beyond, way beyond, 300 yards.

Joe

[StarMetal]

There are no secrets, really. The rules apply to all guns, not just the Swede. The name of the game is to make the entire case fit the chamber, and make the boolit fit within the case neck absolutely concentric. Some custom chambers are tighter than spec, and some cases are thicker than spec. Either one of these situations cause problems that no one likes to talk about on a general purpose board because of lurkers without experience in knowing when a situation is not normal before firing. In the military situation, the guns are sloppy enough to provide continuous fire in the most adverse conditions. That slop must be taken up entirely for the gun to shoot properly with any kind of lead projectile, and most especially when the boolit is long compared to the diameter. Therefore, standard cases cannot be used in this latter situation, like those used for commercial purposes, such as those designated by SAMMI. It is best to prepare cases from cases larger than spec, such as 30-06 cases which are on the fat side (military) for Swede military guns in particular. Neck turning would be required, and a total loaded round should hover in the 0.001 total clearance arena. In addition, the use of a slower than normal powder should be used which would allow the case to be filled to capacity so the boolit will be ejected as concentrically as possible into the grooves. ... felix

Felix,

Great write up. You hit the nail on the head. You have the figures down pretty pat too.

Joe

[geargnasher]

I've been playing the brass game for a while, for example my '06 has a tight but long neck for it's caliber and I use .270 brass and turn it a bit to achieve thinner and longer-necked brass. No potential catastrophies with the headstamp, either.

I just purchased a .308 sizing die to aid in reforming for the Swede, but so far haven't found it has added enough thickness with civilian brands to justify the tedious fireforming process with the small head brass. I have three boxes of old milsurp '06 brass from WWII, but haven't tried reforming those yet.

I'm no expert on fit, but I know how to cast a chamber and fit the brass to the gun within reason, and I usually get between .0013-.0009" loaded neck clearance when I'm done. Does marvels for accuracy.

I've played with powders enough to see I can't get there from here as far as lowering the pressure curve enough to shoot softer alloys very well in '06, .270, or the Swede. What I keep running into is ignition issues when using a slow enough powder to almost fill the case. Seems to be a catch-22 with good ignition versus too-high launch pressures. I'm thinking more of a medium-slow powder and a slightly compressed filler. I've also learned from the many posts here since joining how to heat-treat low-antimony alloy to be hard enough to "launch" well but soft enough to expand, and it's a very good idea which I have put to use, but I believe my results could be improved still.

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Joe, thanks for the pics. There are folks in lots of places doing great things with accuracy and smallbore cast, most of them way ahead of me. I'm just trying to add one more technique to my bag of reloading tricks to enable me to do something, like for example make a better, more packable, lightweight 30-caliber rifle that can still hit hard, hit predictably, and hit long enough to take elk. Or make my .270 actually shoot well with cast (I believe my big problem there is the case volume is too much for the caliber). Or make either of my M96s shoot cast at any kind of useful speed. Stuffing the case is the only thing I can think of besides clearing out and starting over with calibers more ideal for cast (not that the '06 isn't, but maybe not the best choice).

Gear

[StarMetal]

I've been playing the brass game for a while, for example my '06 has a tight but long neck for it's caliber and I use .270 brass and turn it a bit to achieve thinner and longer-necked brass. No potential catastrophies with the headstamp, either.

I just purchased a .308 sizing die to aid in reforming for the Swede, but so far haven't found it has added enough thickness with civilian brands to justify the tedious fireforming process with the small head brass. I have three boxes of old milsurp '06 brass from WWII, but haven't tried reforming those yet.

I'm no expert on fit, but I know how to cast a chamber and fit the brass to the gun within reason, and I usually get between .0013-.0009" loaded neck clearance when I'm done. Does marvels for accuracy.

I've played with powders enough to see I can't get there from here as far as lowering the pressure curve enough to shoot softer alloys very well in '06, .270, or the Swede. I've learned from the many posts here since joining how to heat-treat low-antimony alloy to be hard enough to "launch" well but soft enough to expand, and it's a very good idea, but I believe my results could be improved still.

My objective with granular fillers is take something that already works well with hard lead or J-words and make it work near the same with softer, hunting-grade alloys. Not everyone's tack on that objective, but it's something I haven't tried yet and I think it would work. Bob and others figured this out years ago, but I want to know how to do it safely.

Gear

Ian,

I played with various dies in forming the 6.5x54MS out of 06 brass. The first one is a swaging down die I made to take the case head down to the Mannlicher's size. After that I tried a 308 sizer and it buckled the body, not the neck or shoulder because the swage die made the entire body skinnier then the interior of the 308 die. So I switched that out for the 7x57 mauser die. All I wanted to achieve in this step was push the shoulder back. After I accomplished that I ran them in the standard Mannlicher sizer die.
On the Swede I just formed them on Swede sizer die with no other steps. I use a Dremel cut off wheel to cut off the excess length so I don't have to trim as much on my trimmer. I found commercial cases didn't give me the thicker necks I wanted and to me that was amazing because some of the shoulder becomes the neck after forming. One would think the brass is much thicker then in the neck but apparently not.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Ian,

I played with various dies in forming the 6.5x54MS out of 06 brass. The first one is a swaging down die I made to take the case head down to the Mannlicher's size. After that I tried a 308 sizer and it buckled the body, not the neck or shoulder because the swage die made the entire body skinnier then the interior of the 308 die. So I switched that out for the 7x57 mauser die. All I wanted to achieve in this step was push the shoulder back. After I accomplished that I ran them in the standard Mannlicher sizer die.
On the Swede I just formed them on Swede sizer die with no other steps. I use a Dremel cut off wheel to cut off the excess length so I don't have to trim as much on my trimmer. I found commercial cases didn't give me the thicker necks I wanted and to me that was amazing because some of the shoulder becomes the neck after forming. One would think the brass is much thicker then in the neck but apparently not.

Joe

I don't have an MS yet, maybe someday if I'm lucky. Not to be confused withMS, which I sincerely hope I don't get!

I though the same thing about the '06 brass surely making super-thick Swede necks, thing is the body of the case actually draws up the neck, like hot cheese on a slice of pizza pie, while the shoulder is being set back. We end up with essentially the same thickness in our new neck as the original case was at that point in it's body. I have had better luck setting the shoulder back first, then squeezing down the neck to caliber, but that's just me. I have had a lot of problems with creases trying to do it in one step. I trim the fully -sized necks with a tubing cutter, Lee trim tool base, and a drill, finished off with a bushed 6.5X55 Lee trim guide and cutter (I need cases about .022" longer than SAAMI minimum to fit the one Swede I'm trying this on).

I used to think only br guys (one of which I used to be 15 years ago) dealt with precision case prep, then I started messing with cast in rifles and learned it ain't for half-wits if you want results. Now I've had to buy a few more case prep accesories. That's why I play mostly with pistols and cast nowdays, but some techniques still carry over: I get strange looks from folks at the range when they ask to see what I'm shooting and I hand them a .45 Colt round and they say "how'd you get that headstamp on a .44-40?" because evidently they never heard of neck-sizing to get an oversized-chamber revolver to shoot straight!

Gear