Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Larry Gibson]

Pat I

Larry I'll start looking for them and let you know when and if I find them. Norma's good brass and I think the neck thickness is around .014 and pretty consistent.

Sounds like a plan and no real hurry. This testing will involve numerous sessions over a period of time (probably a couple months at least as I've some other things to do that take me away from home) . I also have measured the other cases i have and they all run around .14 to .18. None of them have been turned concentric so it's hard to get a consistent measurement on the case neck measuring device I have.

I'm just trying to narrow down how someone is getting 2300+ fps and 1/2 moa groups with 31 grs of 4350 and would like you to just load a normal load sans filler in good brass to see the velocity and accuracy difference a filler and formed 06 brass makes.

I can do that easily. I'm hoping to get out tomorrow, if the weather breaks, and test some loads of 4895, AA4350, H4831SC and 3100 with a 3/4 dacron filler. This is with the expected start load range I will use with the "original buffer" to give a comparison. Unfortueately it looks like the origianal buffer and other supplies others are sending won't get here for a while so I don't expect to test the 466455, the BaBore 266469 or the Kurz GB bullets for 3-4 weeks at the soonest.

It can't be the powder because SM said he's done it with 4895, 4350, and 4831/3100 which just about covers the conventional rifle powder burning range. It can't be the primer because SM uses Wolf and 45 2.1 has said he's been doing it since the late 80s and Wolf wasn't around. Can't be the lube since SM said he's had success with LBT and a couple of homemade lubes even if it was in different cartridges. Can't be the fit because 45 2.1 uses .001 neck clearance and SM said his loaded neck diameter was .297/.298 which would be about anywhere from .005 to .008 under chamber neck diameter if yours and my measurements were correct. Can't be the bullet because if I remember right more than one bullet was successfully used. Atmospheric pressure, temperature and altitude are basically none issues and aren't going to make a 5 inch group into a 1/2 inch group. So basically all that's left is the filler and I'd like to see if it really did make a difference in pressure and accuracy. I'm not slamming or doubting anyone here so don't fly off the handle. If any of my Swedes were scoped I'd join in the fun but my eyesight and irons wouldn't prove anything one way or the other except that I can't see. I have the equipment and knowledge to make it happen just not the eyes.

Good observations and conclusions, it will be interesting to see what the tests reveal with the above bullets coming my way. Thanks to all, yes that includes starmetal, for sending supplies for the tests.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal

Do you need my address or do you still have it to send the sizer and bullets?

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry I'll start looking for them and let you know when and if I find them. Norma's good brass and I think the neck thickness is around .014 and pretty consistent.

I'm just trying to narrow down how someone is getting 2300+ fps and 1/2 moa groups with 31 grs of 4350 and would like you to just load a normal load sans filler in good brass to see the velocity and accuracy difference a filler and formed 06 brass makes. It can't be the powder because SM said he's done it with 4895, 4350, and 4831/3100 which just about covers the conventional rifle powder burning range. It can't be the primer because SM uses Wolf and 45 2.1 has said he's been doing it since the late 80s and Wolf wasn't around. Can't be the lube since SM said he's had success with LBT and a couple of homemade lubes even if it was in different cartridges. Can't be the fit because 45 2.1 uses .001 neck clearance and SM said his loaded neck diameter was .297/.298 which would be about anywhere from .005 to .008 under chamber neck diameter if yours and my measurements were correct. Can't be the bullet because if I remember right more than one bullet was successfully used. Atmospheric pressure, temperature and altitude are basically none issues and aren't going to make a 5 inch group into a 1/2 inch group. So basically all that's left is the filler and I'd like to see if it really did make a difference in pressure and accuracy. I'm not slamming or doubting anyone here so don't fly off the handle. If any of my Swedes were scoped I'd join in the fun but my eyesight and irons wouldn't prove anything one way or the other except that I can't see. I have the equipment and knowledge to make it happen just not the eyes.

Pat,

At any rate here is my load shot over the chrono today. I left the gun and ammo outside to chill. It's 40 or slightly below, I believe what it was when Larry shot at his range. The first chrono view is the my load with the buffer, the second pic is my load without the buffer.



That's almost a 250 fps difference with buffer.

I cut a Norma case apart and I cut a FA Match case apart and miked the necks. The Norma was about what you said .014. The FA 06 case was .020. Add those .020's up and you get my .298 case neck measurement.

Joe

[StarMetal]

starmetal

Do you need my address or do you still have it to send the sizer and bullets?

Larry Gibson

Please send it either pm or email.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Okay, so are there anymore doubts about anything? Again we see my velocity, albeit in 40 degree temperatures and it's up there as I said. We also see that the buffer does indeed do something....two fold, increase velocity and enhanced accuracy. We also see that one of the best commercial cases, a Norma, is no ways near as thick as military case in the necks.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

RE; bullet fit in the throat

Obviously I have recieved lots of criticism on the "poor fit" of my 266455 sized at .266 to fit in the forward part of my Swede's throats which are .266 - .2665. Thus I was muddling things over and I had a thought. Both starmetal and 45 2.1 are crimping the case mouths, I am not or at least have not so far.

So I just tried something with my as cast bullets at .2675 - .268. If I seat them a little farther out I can crimp under a driving band. Then when seated the front 2 driving bands are sized that last .001 or so by the front half of the throat at .2665. The front driving band is also then very slightly engraved by the lands. No problem with the bullet sticking on extraction after several chamberings...so far. Can't ask for a better fit than that.

I will try that with the .268 sizer starmetal is sending. That should end the discusion about "poor fit" of the bullets in my rifle's throats.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal

PM with address sent.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

RE; bullet fit in the throat

Obviously I have recieved lots of criticism on the "poor fit" of my 266455 sized at .266 to fit in the forward part of my Swede's throats which are .266 - .2665. Thus I was muddling things over and I had a thought. Both starmetal and 45 2.1 are crimping the case mouths, I am not or at least have not so far.

So I just tried something with my as cast bullets at .2675 - .268. If I seat them a little farther out I can crimp under a driving band. Then when seated the front 2 driving bands are sized that last .001 or so by the front half of the throat at .2665. The front driving band is also then very slightly engraved by the lands. No problem with the bullet sticking on extraction after several chamberings...so far. Can't ask for a better fit than that.

I will try that with the .268 sizer starmetal is sending. That should end the discusion about "poor fit" of the bullets in my rifle's throats.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

That sounds better Larry. By the way to show you how much 45 2.1 didn't tell me, he was vary vague about the crimping. That is he said try it both ways. That told me nothing as to what he done. I crimped as I saw an improved in groups. Remember I use the Lee factory crimper.

I have a feeling we're going to see a higher velocity with your M38.

Joe

[scrapcan]

Larry,

No 268 die. I have a 269 push thru and 2695 H&I. both made by Buckshot. The mould will head your way today.

[Pat I.]

I cut a Norma case apart and I cut a FA Match case apart and miked the necks. The Norma was about what you said .014. The FA 06 case was .020. Add those .020's up and you get my .298 case neck measurement.Joe

Actually that would be .308 but no big deal. I just formed a couple of 6.5s out of some LC 62 Match cases I have and the biggest I got was .017 on the fat side. To completely clean up the neck I would have had to remove a thousandths and a half which would have left me with a .0155 wall thickness. If you're brass is thick enough that you end up with .020 walls why are you turning .005 off per side? Also how are you measuring thickness that you have to cut a case apart?

[StarMetal]

Actually that would be .308 but no big deal. I just formed a couple of 6.5s out of some LC 62 Match cases I have and the biggest I got was .017 on the fat side. To completely clean up the neck I would have had to remove a thousandths and a half which would have left me with a .0155 wall thickness. If you're brass is thick enough that you end up with .020 walls why are you turning .005 off per side? Also how are you measuring thickness that you have to cut a case apart?

I cut the necks off the case, then I slit them, next roll them out flat. I end up with a flat rectangle of brass. Then I simply mic them. I figured that's the most precise way rather then try to mike them while still part of the case. That .020 thick neck is after they were neck turned!!

No comments on the velocity tests huh?

Joe

[Pat I.]

No comment on the velocity and don't start getting yourself all worked up. I'm just talking and asking questions.

In the first place you can't have .020 thick necks and have the loaded neck diameter be .298 with a .268 bullet. It doesn't add up. If your cartridge necks are .298 with a .268 bullet seated they have to be and are .015 thick. There's no question about it or any way they could be anything else. Rolling out pounding flat and micing a piece of neck brass isn't going to be very precise. I use a tubing mic or you can use an indicator on a mandrel. If you want me to check some of your necks let me know and I'll be happy to do it. Mines a Mitutoyo but you can get a decent one for a fairly good price if you look around or buy used.

Another good but slower and more wasteful way is to seat a bullet you know the diameter of and mic the neck. Divide the difference by two and that's your starting wall thickness. After that it's just a cut a little and try campaign until you get what you're looking for.

[felix]

That last paragraph is what I do, if that is any bearing on the "case" at hand. ... felix

[Eutectic]

I don't know how anyone gets by without a tubing mic in this game we all play in.... especially those posting in this thread! Not only can you get a precise neck wall thickness, you can spin the casing with the mic backed off a little and check around the whole circumference for uniform thickness quickly and easily. I find brass more than I like that has an even neck wall thickness with the exception of an internal land maybe only several thousandths wide and a couple thousandths high at times somewhere in the circumference! ( Draw scar?)Enough that if one wants perfect necks sometimes both inside and outside need to be done.

Eutectic

[Larry Gibson]

Manyof use who have the better commercial or custon concentricity gauges usually have a "tubing" mic as part of it for measuring case neck and body wall thicknesses. That's how I measure case necks.

felix made a joke....

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Now what in the heck did I say to deserve that????? I had to assume you pounded the brass flat because how else would you get it flat enough to get a good reading.

[geargnasher]

?????

Gear

[leftiye]

I think I'll just go watch "The Young and the Breastless."

[robertbank]

Now what in the heck did I say to deserve that????? I had to assume you pounded the brass flat because how else would you get it flat enough to get a good reading.

You didn't and it was uncalled for. I have removed the post until then this thread will be left open awaiting Larry's tests. If there are any further outbreaks the thread wil be closed.

Take Care

Bob

[felix]

I am going home now taking my toys with me. ... felix