Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[Pat I.]

Do you mean tapered cross section if you cut the neck in half length wise and that being from brass flow....or do you mean take on the taper of the chamber neck from obturating to it?

This one

2) I think the difference between .324 and .298 is big enough that you don't have to worry about a knife edged micrometer.

3) 1/2 MOA aggregates out to 300 yds and .0005 per side neck clearance is benchrest competition. From your neck measurement you might be running a little more than .001 clearance though

[StarMetal]

2) I think the difference between .324 and .298 is big enough that you don't have to worry about a knife edged micrometer.

3) 1/2 MOA aggregates out to 300 yds and .0005 per side neck clearance is benchrest competition. From your neck measurement you might be running a little more than .001 clearance though

I may be running a tad more clearance, but I wasn't at first. I was wanting to be certain of not running into a pressure problem. I at one time was running dang near zero clearance in the 6.5MS. 45 2.1 claims to run half the clearance I do... .00005. Says he searched long and hard for thickest military cases he could find.

Also if you run a little clearance you don't have to worry as much about the Swede's tapered neck.

Joe

[geargnasher]

You don't have to go through all that trouble. 45 2.1 and I are shooting pretty decent not having to do that for sure. Y'all making this too complicated. This turned into a how to load the buffer procedure for the Swede....not a benchrest competition or rocket science.

Joe

I don't know about what you're doing, Joe, but 45 2.1 keeps pointing out how he knows Larry's neck clearances with his MexSwede are too great to get any kind of accuracy. We ARE splitting hairs here, because, as PatI pointedout, this IS benchrest-quality shooting we're talking about here, and I for one can't figure out how you make "bug holes" at 100 yards when you don't seem to even bother to measure your neck clearance. What are your neck bushing measurements with that .298-ish chamber and .268" boolits? what size is your expander plug? Do you check your necks after a few firings to see if brass is flowing from the body and shoulder to thicken the bases a bit? Do you get stretch rings (like case head stretch rings) on or near the base of the necks?

I can't understand how you just slap it together and get tiny groups and warp speed and 45 2.1 demands fit that rivals swiss watchmakers, saying that's why Larry's first test groups were so (typically for that velocity) bad when Larry's fit was in some cases better than yours.

From my limited experience competing with jacketed, I KNOW that every part of the case/chamber/boolit/barrel fit must be carefully made to within VERY close tolerances, always to four decimal places, or you won't get far. I had someone else, with all the equipment I couldn't afford at the time, prep my cases for me to fit my exact gun.

Problem with the Swede is there are things to fit that are beyond the range of most available components, and things like a tapered neck and oversized leade exacerbate the situation.

Gear

[StarMetal]

I don't know about what you're doing, Joe, but 45 2.1 keeps pointing out how he knows Larry's neck clearances with his MexSwede are too great to get any kind of accuracy. We ARE splitting hairs here, because, as PatI pointedout, this IS benchrest-quality shooting we're talking about here, and I for one can't figure out how you make "bug holes" at 100 yards when you don't seem to even bother to measure your neck clearance. What are your neck bushing measurements with that .298-ish chamber and .268" boolits? what size is your expander plug? Do you check your necks after a few firings to see if brass is flowing from the body and shoulder to thicken the bases a bit? Do you get stretch rings (like case head stretch rings) on or near the base of the necks?

I can't understand how you just slap it together and get tiny groups and warp speed and 45 2.1 demands fit that rivals swiss watchmakers, saying that's why Larry's first test groups were so (typically for that velocity) bad when Larry's fit was in some cases better than yours.

From my limited experience competing with jacketed, I KNOW that every part of the case/chamber/boolit/barrel fit must be carefully made to within VERY close tolerances, always to four decimal places, or you won't get far. I had someone else, with all the equipment I couldn't afford at the time, prep my cases for me to fit my exact gun.

Problem with the Swede is there are things to fit that are beyond the range of most available components, and things like a tapered neck and oversized leade exacerbate the situation.

Gear

I'm using a neck sizer die that I made that doesn't bring the neck done excessively far. I already stated to Felix that my expander plug is .002 under the bullet size. My bullet sizer is .268. I use a Lee factory die to crimp my loads as I do crimp them. I'm running loser tolerances in the necks then 45 2.1 is. I don't recall 45 2.1 remarks on Larry's neck clearances but I certainly don't have any problems with what Larry is doing in that area. He knows the route of using 06 brass for thicker necks. Yeah the Swede also has a fatter case too then the 06 family. Remember my very first loads fired with fresh prepared 06 cases have the thin 1/8 inch strip around the case to center the rear of the case in the chamber and I don't have to fool with firing them a bunch of times to get them to swell out evening all the way around. A real pain in the butt too. The bullets we have fill those long throats very well.

I'd like to get off this benchrest stuff and stick more to loading for the Swede with the buffer.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Sorry, Joe, I got in a hurry and forgot you posted your expander dimensions.

Ok, if the buffer and a reasonable fit is all it takes, then that would be wonderful. I'm just pointing out that 45 2.1 directed .0008-.0010" neck clearance to another member here once, and reiterates in his instructions in this thread .001" neck clearance at least twice and says that is part of the reason Larry's first test groups were not good.

If perfect fit wasn't critical, why would he keep bringing it up?

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Spinning up the mic after passing the .275 mark by .023 on dial made it look Like I was at the .300 mark. The brass loaded with the .268 bullet is .297-.298 when I measure about the middle of the neck. I think to get a really accurate measure at different positions on the neck one would need a knife edge mic.

Joe

Send the cases or ammo, they will fit. I have just completed slugging all 4 of 6.5 Swede necks and throats. All 4 chambers are so close together it is scary. The only real difference is in the Headspace dimension. The headspace dimensions using a "C" gauge datum line with Stoney Point tool are;

The Mex Swede; 1.763
Both of my M38s; 1.77
the M96; 1.774

The lead slugs driven into the chamber throat from the shoulder/neck to 1/2" into the lead gave almost identical measurements.

With the excption of the length of the chamber neck. The M38 I intend to use for the rest of the test (yes I'm changing to the M38 in an attempt to placate Joe and 45 2.1) has the longest neck by .005 at .311. The Mex is the next longest at with the other M38 and the M96 being the shortest at .306. The chamber necks taper from the shoulder/neck joint at .306 to .310 to .301 to .302 at the chamber case mouth. All of the throats taper from .269/.270 at the chamber case mout to .266/.2665 about half way down the throat. The lead on all 4 chambers was .530 to .538 from the case mouth as near as I could measure that. The groove depth measured .266 to .2665 depnding on the land I was measuring on all 4 rifles.

You can see from those measurements why I have to size the long Lovern bullet to .266 if I am going seat it to the leade. Now I also use a Forster outside neck turner and minimally trueing up the formed case necks (U42 cases) to allow a .001 slip fit in the chamber neck.

So Joe, it looks like your rounds should chamber in one of my rifles. I'm still offering to pay the shipping and $1 per round to test them. I would prefer 50 rounds to include a decent "seasoning" of the barrel with your lube that you talk about. However, 10 rounds would be nice but I will settle for 5. How about it?

We have time anyways as the "original" filler won't be here for a few days and I'm going to be gone again for a couple weeks anyway. So we've plenty of time for shipping the ammo. Let me know. BTW, since I can, I will also be testing the same loads in the Mex Swede that I test in the M38. That way we will have a good idea if there is/was any real difference for all the hoopla. I use a Redding bushing die to size the case necks. Using an appropriate bushing I size them so there is .001 - .002 at the most neck tension on the .266 bullets. This very minimally works the necks. I am going to concentrate on 30 to 35 gr of AA4350 and also 3100 with the "original" filler in the formed cases. For the record; does that sound right? If you've something other that I should do please speak now or forever hold your peace.....no that doesn't mean Joe and I have a thing going

Larry Gibson.

[StarMetal]

Ok, if the buffer is all it takes, then that would be wonderful. I'm just pointing out that 45 2.1 directed .0008-.0010" neck clearance to another member here once, and reiterates in his instructions in this thread .001" neck clearance at least twice and says that is part of the reason Larry's first test groups were not good.

If perfect fit wasn't critical, why would he keep bringing it up?

Gear

Yeah, well my neck clearance is what I said and I was able to do it. I've also been able to do with powders 45 2.1 said won't do it. Then when I talked to him about it he said they have a very narrow window range. Apparently I lucked into that window with the 6.5MS. He told me to use 3100 for the Swede, didn't have any so got 4350 to work. I've also got some really good results with duplexing 860 surplus and using the Cruise Missile got some really mine boggling velocities with decent accuracy. 45 2.1 wanted me to post them and I said no, wasn't my traditional bug holes so I didn't. By the way I don't consider my Swede load with 4350 as really really super HV. It's fast yes, but that's how I feel.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Soooooo, do you have any further suggestions for Larry's next test?

45 2.1, how about you? Or is he going to waste his time with what he's doing?

Gear

[Pat I.]

45 2.1 claims to run half the clearance I do... .00005.
Joe

Wouldn't that be 5/100,000 of an inch? How in the heck did he measure that?

[45 2.1]

Soooooo, do you have any further suggestions for Larry's next test?

45 2.1, how about you? Or is he going to waste his time with what he's doing?

Gear

His procedure, NOW, seems to be OK, as long as he doesn't test random charges as he seems to be wanting to do. He needs to find the sweet spot and test it. That spot is determined by accuracy alone. Unless he does that he would be hitting around the targeted area, not on it.

Half a thousandth is usually written 0.0005" and is the tightest anyone should go. I've been at this longer and have more specialized tools to do it with.

[felix]

Yes, Pat-I, the extra slop afforded by the straight neck turning is actually is our favor. The way I measure the slop as in "doe-nut" expansion after a shot is with an expander button "turned to be just the right size" to de-prime the case. If there is no hitting the neck sides by sound during the operation, the cases do not need another turn. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Why would extra slop be advantageous besides safety and what is a "doe-nut" ? The only way I've seen he term donut used in relationship to fitting or turning necks is when you don't turn them far enough down into the shoulder and and you raise an internal ring at the bottom of the case neck after fireforming. Is this what you're talking about?

[felix]

Yes, Pat. The extra cut caused by the sloping neck will be filled back in as the donut expands upwards out of the case mouth. Should take about 5 or 6 firings at 40K CUP to fill that extra 3 thousands of slop from a freshly cut case, assuming a straight neck thickness of 0.0008 or so. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Why would extra slop be advantageous besides safety and what is a "doe-nut" ? The only way I've seen he term donut used in relationship to fitting or turning necks is when you don't turn them far enough down into the shoulder and and you raise an internal ring at the bottom of the case neck after fireforming. Is this what you're talking about?

Pat,

Do you know Robert Whitney? If not you need to talk to him about benchresting.

The boys over on the Grendel forum discovered the dreaded donut quite fast when they were reforming 7.62x39 to 6.5 Grendle. It's a raised portion of brass, a doughnut if you will, right at the shoulder neck junction. If you don't expand your neck it will be inside the neck. One of the fellows, or should I say a few of them, are benchresters. (In fact Arne Brennan that really invented the Grendel was a benchrester) He uses a set of precision dowel pins and he was the first to find it.

See here about doughnuts:
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/6XC_DonutCutter.html
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/15MOA_Taper.html

Joe

[StarMetal]

Ok guys, this thread is getting off track. Here's the scoop: Being many of you are new at this, neck trim your cases to .001 and use the fattest bullet you can chamber. You will find it's going to be around .268. Other then that if you guys that want to talk benchresting and necks, etc.., start another thread. Either that or I'm finished discussing loading for the Swede. I'll also talk to 45 2.1 to not divulge in this thread any further either. You make the decision.

Joe

[felix]

Absolutely wrong logic, Joe! Why go to a fat case otherwise? ... felix

[Pat I.]

I think we're going pretty far astray here and think we should return to topic. I don't know either of the guys you mentioned but knowledge about "The Dreaded Donut" was around long before the 6.5 Grendel. I've done more than my fair share of both case forming and neck turning and know all about the donut.

Oops. I was typing while you were posting and think returning to topic is a good idea.

[felix]

At least 50 years ago, starting with Harvey D using a single 22-250 case for an entire match. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Pat I,

Yes it's a good idea to get back to just loading the Swede. I just used the Grendel as an example of how easy the doughnut can appear. In fact I'll bet many reform cases of various calibers and don't know they have a doughnut, especially when loading cast.

Okay, back on topic guys. Resolver your case neck issues in your own manners and resume Swede loading discussions.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

His procedure, NOW, seems to be OK, as long as he doesn't test random charges as he seems to be wanting to do. He needs to find the sweet spot and test it. That spot is determined by accuracy alone. Unless he does that he would be hitting around the targeted area, not on it.

45 2.1

A bit of an explanation and then a couple questions;

The purpose of my test is two fold. First is the accuracy at HV I understand the "sweet spot". But without critical load information one has to "work up a load". With both the 4895 and AA4350 powder tests there was a progression of the loads, working up in the classical sense, based on the generalized information starmetal gave. Thus I started at or near his loads and worked up. The "worked up" brings us to the second reason for the tests.

Both you and starmetal have been adament that reloaders using this technique could get into a dangerous pressure situation if too much powder was used for the reduced case capcity cused by the filler. No problem understanding that. Starmetal even told of his hard bolt lift (normally a sign of high pressure). Thus my intent on the increasing powder charges with corresponding decrease in filler was to find where pressures got high. Thus there was nothing "random" about my testing as in was a methodical progression for a determined purpose.

With the AA4350 I did experience "hard bolt lift" with one load. However other than the hard bolt lift there were no other indications of pressure. There was no measured indication of high pressure either. The measured pressure had smooth and consistent pressure traces with no spikes. The next load which was 2 gr more powder gave no hard bolt lift or any other sign of high pressure. It also measured a smooth pressure trace and it had the expected linear increase in pressure. The intitial conclusion here is that something other than high pressure is causing the hard bolt lift. Further testing will provide more data for a better or perhaps different conclusion. However, in order to find that data test loads must go up into that realm. Thus i will continue to "work up" the loads with each powder. This will give us a sound and correct understanding of what the pressure is actually doing.

Questions;

I understand that 31 gr AA4350 is the "sweet spot" in starmetals rifle. However it only produced 1965 fps. Starmetals load produced the reported 2200+ fps. Having shot many loads through both the Mex and the M38 with very little difference in velocity between them I do not expect the same load to pick up 250-300 fps simply because of the change to the M38. Do you think the use of "original" filler instead of the #47 will increase the velocity 250-300 fps? If the change in rifles and filler does not get me up to 2200+ fps do you suggest working up with more than 31 gr AA4350 untill the velocity is at the level of starmetals?

When I test 3100 in the M38 with the "original filler" what powder charge do you suggest I work around?

As always, thanks for your help.

Larry Gibson