Milk Jug 300 Yard 6.5 Swede

[StarMetal]

Larry,

Interesting. First thing that comes to mind is that I don't really get a big puff of filler, that I can see, from the muzzle. I'd say normal little smoke for a cast load. Not what you get from 50/50 Alox/beeswax.

In the loads that I shot the best groups with the 6.5MS and the 6.5Swede I used AC bullets, not hardened. I have shot harden thought.

I'm wondering too my velocities were higher then yours the only differences being I'm using different buffer then that #47, my bullets are sized fatter, and my cases are crimped. I'm using Wolf primers and they are not exactly soft primers and on the hotter loads the are pretty flat, but not a 90 degree corner. With the 6.5MS I started off with LBT Blue Soft lube, later switched to my soap lube, but the Swede was always with my soap lube. One more thing, my gas checks were mine exclusively.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Larry, this is really good. Finally some true science with the Swede.

I can't do much but sit here and cheer, but I did have a couple of questions and observations, just my speculations.

I wasn't clear on how much compression you had, did you fill the case completely, tap, refill and then seat?

Your loads and accuracy results are similar to what I've experienced. The faster you go, the worse it gets. I'm beginning to wonder if the combination of non-clumping filler and no crimp is negating any effect the filler might have on "launch" other than improving ignition consistency.

Also, 45 2.1 has stated several times that he doesn't anneal the necks of his reformed .30-'06 brass in the military Swedes, and IIRC doesn't crimp or lightly crimps. I'm wondering what the difference would be in .001" neck tension with factory-neck brass is versus .001" neck tension in super-hard and thick reformed cases. How much neck clearance are you running?

Thanks again for sharing the results of your efforts, I'm soakin' it up!

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I wasn't clear on how much compression you had, did you fill the case completely, tap, refill and then seat?

I made sure each case was full to just the bottom of the neck with a couple taps on the loading bench to make sure the filler was settled and had not bridged in the case. The GC probably compressed it about 1/2 the thickness of the GC.

Your loads and accuracy results are similar to what I've experienced. The faster you go, the worse it gets. I'm beginning to wonder if the combination of non-clumping filler and no crimp is negating any effect the filler might have on "launch" other than improving ignition consistency.

Hard to say until I get some of the "original" filler to test with the same loads. I will be putting a slight crimp on the next test with this filler to see if that makes a difference.

Also, 45 2.1 has stated several times that he doesn't anneal the necks of his reformed .30-'06 brass in the military Swedes, and IIRC doesn't crimp or lightly crimps. I'm wondering what the difference would be in .001" neck tension with factory-neck brass is versus .001" neck tension in super-hard and thick reformed cases. How much neck clearance are you running?

I am running right at .006 clearence with a .266 bullet. I have never found a lot of '06 cases including milsurp cases that are thick enough to give a .001 clearence. Even at that the necks on the highest psi load (41L+) did not expand more than .004. Considering 2/3s of the bullets is already in the throat I don't think I'm having a problem with alignment. I've only begun to test and I'm sure all of this will take several months to complete so stay tuned.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal

By "harder" I meant with a harder alloy not WQing. The ones I have cast are about 18 BHN and are AC'd.

Larry Gibson

[Dutchman]

m/1894 & m/1896 Swedish Mauser twist rate is 200mm which is one turn in 7.874 inches.

The origin of this twist rate: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...095#post774095

Dutch

[Dutchman]

The test rifle is a Mexican SR M98 action that I put a new, in the white milsurp M38 Swede barrel on. The headspace is very tight with factory 6.5x55 ammunition giving a “crush” fit when the bolt is closed.

Maybe something, maybe nothing.. but it jumped out at me and it may very well be a factor that could skew your entire test.

The Swedish replacement barrels are short chambered. They will chamber but they'll give a "crush" feeling. Its not the case shoulder mashing into the chamber shoulder. Its the case mouth "crimping" into an incomplete chamber, (see the yellow circle).

I've seen this situation in a Turkish Mauser with a new m/96 barrel installed where the fellow did not drop a go gauge into the chamber after installing the barrel. He assumed... He got under MOA accuracy but the primers showed definite signs of high pressure, so maybe this won't apply to your rifle. But there's only one sure way to know.. When I looked at the fired cases from this Turk-Swede I saw something that the fellow who owned it didn't see. The case mouth was crimped *inward*. It was exactly as you would imagine a case mouth would look like if it was forced into a chamber that wasn't long enough.

You say your rifle is "very tight". As meticulous as you are (some may use words other than "meticulous" ) you'll understand that I don't accept "very tight" as having anything other than an arbitrary meaning. In other words, it means nothing.

Did you actually use a headspace gauge in this rifle after you installed the barrel?

If you don't have a SAAMI "go" gauge I'll gladly lend you one but I don't have a chambering reamer should your rifle require reaming to bring it to SAAMI specification. FYI- the SAAMI "go" gauge is actually shorter than the Swedish military "go" gauge. I have a very valuable set of Swedish military regimental-level gauges, brand new, and all 3 SAAMI gauges: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/headspace.html

What "factory" ammo are you referring to here? American factory ammo or Swedish? The replacement m/38 barrels and m/96 replacement barrels were throated for the 156 gr round nose bullet. The military pretty much had to stay with that particular specification due to the variety of ammunition in use. Even with that throat the 139 gr m/41 sniper bullet produced outstanding accuracy.

Anyway... maybe something, maybe nothing.



Dutch

[45 2.1]

The test described is outside of the loading parameters I gave. The tolerences are not as prescribed and the rifle is not a standard Swedish mauser, but an abortion that is quite modified from its original form. Until you get these things in line, you are doing "Lets try this" which isn't going to give answers to the questions asked by other members.

Lee used to make specific rifle taper crimp dies. These are not the collet type crimp dies.

[OBXPilgrim]

Ok Dutch - I can't let you get by with that photo without an explanation.

I'm talking about what looks like a brazed-in chamber. There's got to be a good story about that one and I'm sure there are a few others besides me that would like to know - Inquiring minds and all that. Must have been rebored/rifled after the brazed in chamber was done.

[StarMetal]

Not to be rude but I don't see anything impressive with Larry's test. All it was is shooting his rifle with velocities. Any of us with a chrono could have done that, myself included. Only thing he did give the pressure.

Now that I've reread Larry's post I see some mistakes. His loading procedure is wrong. He is also wrong about 06 brass not being thick enough to give .001 clearance. 45 2.1 and myself have found brass that won't chamber if not neck turned using a .268 bullet. Not all 06 brass will give you this.

Dutch knows these Swedes very well so I can't and won't argue with his replacement barrel specs, but he is very very well correct about a turned in case mouth raising pressure.

geargnasher I think you better talk to 45 2.1 again about his 06 case preparations. If you can't get the right information please don't post it here.

Dutch, could those replacement barrel chambers be similar to the 6.5x55 SKAN? Can you expound on the SKAN?

Joe

[geargnasher]

Joe, would you mind at least sharing some of the brass preparation techniques you have sucessfully used? For one thing, I've been curious as to what length you trim your brass. My Swede chambers are both about .025-028" longer than SAAMI maximum case length, and in the past I have trimmed my reformed cases to about the same dimensions I used with 6 PPC in benchrest, but I'm not going to assume anything here.

I've spent many, many days in past months going over thousands of posts from 4-1/2 years of this forum, plus archives and I have searched out 45 2.1 on other forums and found Swede information there as well. The problem with information is that it is either cryptic, above my level of understanding, or it is constantly evolving as more testing is done, therefore contradictory information from the same people exists. I don't know for sure what the "current" method is anymore, evidently neither does the gentleman who is dedicating a tremendous amount of time, effort, and not a few components to proving this out. I was hoping you or 45 2.1 would be willing clear some of these details up step-by-step as Larry goes through these tests.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

Maybe something, maybe nothing.. but it jumped out at me and it may very well be a factor that could skew your entire test.

The Swedish replacement barrels are short chambered. They will chamber but they'll give a "crush" feeling. Its not the case shoulder mashing into the chamber shoulder. Its the case mouth "crimping" into an incomplete chamber, (see the yellow circle).

I researched this and asked several "experts" (in Sweden actually) and they said the replacement barrels are fully chambered to minimum chamber specifications. I also made chamber casts of the three other 6.5 Swedes I have (2 M38s and 1 M96 all in excellent condition). The case dimensions were all essentially the same especially the length of the neck and the throats. Lead slugs were used to get throat and chamber neck diameters. The replacement barrel gives a crush fit because the M98 has the inner shoulder and the face of the barrel was fitted to that; in other words the M98 SR action requires a barrel shank a few thousenths shorter than a M96 action.

The chamber is "tight" headspace wise and the bolt doesn't really crush anything, that's just what it's called whn you can feel the bolt close on the case. It is very similar to what your feel on well fire formed cases where in the term used is "crush fit". I thought you would have understood the vernacular of firearms terminology. On a M96 action the headspace of the replacement barrel would be very close (.001 -.002", one over and one under) to what the headspace is on the 2 M38s I have. The M96 has a headspace that is .010 longer than the 2 M38s I have or of several other M38s. I have also measured the headspace of numerous M96s and find them to vary greatly as was the practice with Mausers of that period. Apparently the headspace of the M38 was held to much tigher specifications when they rebarreled the M96 actions into that M38 style of rifle.

The necks of the cases used do not crimp into the chamber mouth as you suggest. If you read the text of the post the crush fit is with factory ammuntion. The test loads (10 shot strings) of PVRI and Winchester factory ammuntion conducted at the conclusion of the cast bullet tests were normal in every way. The cases used for the cast bullet test were formed from '06 cases and were formed to fit that specific chamber. The fit it very well thank you. The chamber neck and throat of the 6.5 Swede do not resemble the soldered in sleve chamber of the M95 you pictures.

I've seen this situation in a Turkish Mauser with a new m/96 barrel installed where the fellow did not drop a go gauge into the chamber after installing the barrel. He assumed... He got under MOA accuracy but the primers showed definite signs of high pressure, so maybe this won't apply to your rifle. It does not apply. But there's only one sure way to know.. When I looked at the fired cases from this Turk-Swede I saw something that the fellow who owned it didn't see. The case mouth was crimped *inward*. I have thoroughly inspected the cases including the case mouths, I even measure the inside and outside for expansion (a detail included in my post when I said how much they expanded). There was no "inward crimp" what so ever. I have been reloading long enough to well aware of that problem and I do not allow it to happen.It was exactly as you would imagine a case mouth would look like if it was forced into a chamber that wasn't long enough.

You say your rifle is "very tight". As meticulous as you are (some may use words other than "meticulous" ) you'll understand that I don't accept "very tight" as having anything other than an arbitrary meaning. In other words, it means nothing.

It means tight headspace is what it means. Perhaps that is "nothing" to you but to those who understand the difference between the test rifles headspace and the M96 I have is .014". That can translate into enough more case volume to lower pressures and velocities. It is why SAAMI test barrels, including the cahmbers, are minimum specification. That relates to "tight". The point was the headspace on the test rifle was at or below minimum spec and would give the highes pressures and velocities.

Did you actually use a headspace gauge in this rifle after you installed the barrel?

No, there was a slight feel ("crush fit") on the bolt as it closed on full length formed cases from the RCBS dies. That gives minimum headspace for my sized cases. Once fire formed and used with lower pressure cast bullet loads with the case expanding into the chamber the resulten fit means there is no "crush" when the fire formed cases are chambered. They fit perfectly.

If you don't have a SAAMI "go" gauge I'll gladly lend you one but I don't have a chambering reamer should your rifle require reaming to bring it to SAAMI specification. FYI- the SAAMI "go" gauge is actually shorter than the Swedish military "go" gauge. I have a very valuable set of Swedish military regimental-level gauges, brand new, and all 3 SAAMI gauges: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/headspace.html

Thanks anyway, but I prefer to leave the rifle as is with minimal headspace. According to measurements of fired cases it is at minimal headspace. I also have a M38 with excellent barrel that has a strain gauge on it. I am going to switch to that rifle and repeat the the 4895 tests to note the difference, if any, between it and the Mexican M98 barreled rifle. I shall then continue the test with the M38 to avoid this type of arguement. It amazes me how quickly some people forget (starmetal and 45 2.1) for instance. The, starmetal in particular, who challenged me to shoot HV loads in the Mexican M98 with the replacement barrel. So I begin to do that and now they criticise that it is not a "swedish" rifle. I believe I criticised starmetal for his use of the 6.5MS in lieu of the Swede and was poohooed by them for that. Now they are criticising because I use the rifle they requested. Well, I can easily fix that by using a M38 as I just happen to have one all ready to go. Do you supposed I will get an opology if the velocities and pressure and lack of accuracy come out the same with the M38? Knowing them I doubt it.

What "factory" ammo are you referring to here? American factory ammo or Swedish? The replacement m/38 barrels and m/96 replacement barrels were throated for the 156 gr round nose bullet. The military pretty much had to stay with that particular specification due to the variety of ammunition in use. Even with that throat the 139 gr m/41 sniper bullet produced outstanding accuracy.

The factory ammuntion was PVRI 139 gr FMJ and Winchester 140 gr SPs. I consider the accuracy I got (2 five shot groups of 1.03 and 1.1" with the PVRI and a 10 shot group of 1.4" with the Winchester) to be excellent considering the .264 diamter bullets of each. As mentioned that rifle will shoot better with quality Sierra or Hornady bullets. That rifle and my other Swedes shoot their best (sub moa) with the Hornady 160 gr .268 bullets.

Anyway... maybe something, maybe nothing.

As I noted the test is just beginning. Perhaps it would be best if we all waited for the tests to be completed and I've made a conclusion be fore we criticis or make such judgements as "maybe something, maybe nothing". Otherwise you've just got the cart before the horse.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I didn't criticize your MexSwede. After you found out my 96 Swede wasn't stock, that is it has a bent down bolt handle, scope, and Timney trigger you selected your MexSwede for the test so you wouldn't feel out gunned. After you presented that fact I accepted and said go shoot the bug holes at HV. We're finding out my 6.5MS is dang close to the Swede twist with it's 1-8 (that's the 6.5MS) which is very close to the Swedes 1-7.9. Other then the bore dimensions being tigther the rest of the barrel, that is, the chamber is old school 6.5x54 MS. By that I mean when Lothar Walther chambers an European caliber they use the original chamber specifications.

I understand what you're saying about the way you chambered or setup your MexSwede, but in the gunsmith circles we know that's the incorrect way to do it...although you knew that you chose to do it your way for your reasons. However we, including you, have no ideas of what the chamber really measured out as without gauging it with the appropriate gauges.

I'm not criticizing you test in only that geargnasher posted it was an excellent test, which I didn't agree. I could have posted all the velocities for all my loads I used until I found the sweet spot in both my 6.5MS and 6.5S. What for? Reloaders and shooters are only interested in the loads that work. For your information in testing both the 6.5MS and the 6.5S with various bullets with various lubes, with AC'ed and WQ'ed, never did any of the bullet go off my printer paper target at any velocity. In fact quite a few of them were very acceptable deer hunting accuracy, but not the accuracy I normally brag about here on the forum. Back to your test. I was kind of hoping for pressure curve and some bullet BC's too.

Geargnasher,

Since you posted that you got that information about the cases from 45 2.1 I then suggest you query him for the answers.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Dutch and Gibson,

Look at these two chamber drawings. One is the Swede and the other is the Swede SKAN. Now being that Larry has gotten a few people slightly heated here I'll take this opportunity for some insurance for myself. These chamber drawings in no way refer, suggest, or even hint that neither of you two don't know of them. They are just here for information about Swede chambers. I also feel of all the European Mausers that the Swede's generally were more uniform in their dimensions.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Joe, I thought it was an excellent test in that the test successfully evaluated the performance of the components and techniques in question. The results were lousy, but the experiment very successfull.

The only experiment that fails is one that inadequately proves the hypothesis either way.

No kidding there is much more to be done.

Gear

[felix]

If the case capacities are anywhere close with the same barrel specs, then it should not make one iota of difference when comparing the different guns for ball park velocities and accuracy assuming well fitted ammo, i.e, BR standard ammo. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Nice to see you didn't disappoint me with your naysayer witch doctor caveats even before the test was completed. It was you who said it would take a lot of time and experimenting before it was right. You also said to ask questions. So I will ask your indulgence on this matter. I have said the test is not complete. I have said I am going to continue testing. What have not said is that based on my first test HV accuracy with the Swede can't be done. I am trying to get there with what I have and have other componants (one's you said were correct) ordered. I simply am reporting the facts of my tests so far. A little more help and a lot lot less negative comments from you would be appreciated.

The test described is outside of the loading parameters I gave. The tolerences are not as prescribed and the rifle is not a standard Swedish mauser, but an abortion that is quite modified from its original form. Until you get these things in line, you are doing "Lets try this" which isn't going to give answers to the questions asked by other members.

As to the Mex Swede rifle I'm not sure I would call it an abortion, it is a nice shooting rifle. Also if you recall your own poohoo's when I mentioned to starmetal his use of the 6.5MS to shoot HV cast loads in a 6.5. You certainly thought his rifle while obviously not a "Swede" was ok to use. At least my rifle had a real Swede 6.5 barrel on it. Having the headspace at a minimum may seem like an abortion to you but it is standard industry practice. None the less I will switch to a "real" 6.5 Swede, a M38. I will also run the same tests for comparison so we shall she if the Mex 6.5 Swede is an "abortion". I was following your directions that you posted with the exception of the filler. I had them loaded and based on your previous mysterious postings that was the type of filler myself and several others thought you were using. It was not. However I decided to just try it to see if it worked. It didn't...so what. It was valuable as it narrowed down the loads needed to duplicate the 2200 fps starmetal was getting. I will also use it to loads with 3 other powders so I can narrow down the loads to be tested when the "original" filler gets here. I don't think that's a difficult concept to understand. If I don't get accuracy out of the tests then so what. I will still get decent data that is useable and others will not have to go down my path.

Lee used to make specific rifle taper crimp dies. These are not the collet type crimp dies.

I will check with Lee, thank you.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Not to be rude but I don't see anything impressive with Larry's test. All it was is shooting his rifle with velocities. Any of us with a chrono could have done that, myself included. Only thing he did give the pressure.

Now that I've reread Larry's post I see some mistakes. His loading procedure is wrong. He is also wrong about 06 brass not being thick enough to give .001 clearance. 45 2.1 and myself have found brass that won't chamber if not neck turned using a .268 bullet. Not all 06 brass will give you this.

You really need to read what I write Joe. I can not use .268 cast 266455 Lovern bullets and have them fit in the .267 throat. The Hornady .268 bullets work because the nose is tapered and the .268 part of the bullet is not in the throat during chambering) The cast bullets are sized .266. The '06 formed cases with the thickest necks after truing That I have found are U 42 and DEN 42 cases. They give .020 thick necks after truing. The chamber neck of the M38 Swede I am going to use is .308. Take .266 and add 2 X .020 and you get .306. That is .001 clearence on each side of the cartridge neck in the chamber, that is what 45 2.1 says to do. If PMC cases (cases you said were very good to use) are used with their .014 thick necks then there is a .006 clearence on each side of the neck. Which do you really suggest using?

Dutch knows these Swedes very well so I can't and won't argue with his replacement barrel specs, but he is very very well correct about a turned in case mouth raising pressure.

A "turned case mouth did not happen and pressures were not "raised". The pressures were consistent through out with no measured indication of pressure problems.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I didn't criticize your MexSwede. After you found out my 96 Swede wasn't stock, that is it has a bent down bolt handle, scope, and Timney trigger you selected your MexSwede for the test so you wouldn't feel out gunned. After you presented that fact I accepted and said go shoot the bug holes at HV. We're finding out my 6.5MS is dang close to the Swede twist with it's 1-8 (that's the 6.5MS) which is very close to the Swedes 1-7.9. Other then the bore dimensions being tigther the rest of the barrel, that is, the chamber is old school 6.5x54 MS. By that I mean when Lothar Walther chambers an European caliber they use the original chamber specifications.

There are numerous posts made by you challenging me to shoot HV 6.5 Swede loads specifically in my Mex M98. I used the Mex M98 only because of your challenge. If you doubt that then simple research your own posts. It is now not relevant as I am switching to a M38, then you and 54 2.1 won't have a complaint. This sure seems strange after all the whining you did when I questioned you on your use of the 6.5MS, sort of "kettle calling the pot black, eh?

I understand what you're saying about the way you chambered or setup your MexSwede, but in the gunsmith circles we know that's the incorrect way to do it...although you knew that you chose to do it your way for your reasons. However we, including you, have no ideas of what the chamber really measured out as without gauging it with the appropriate gauges.

The headspace was measured and I accepted the minimum. There was nothing "incorrect" about it at all unless it was intended to fire ALL available ammuntion. It was not, it was intended to shoot my reloads loaded with my dies. That is the very same as it is done with match cambers in many match rifles and all wildcats. That method I used is well accepted with in "gunsmith circles".

I'm not criticizing you test in only that geargnasher posted it was an excellent test, which I didn't agree. Then how come when I gave you the specifics of the test I was going to use during our conversation on the phone 3 days ago you said they sounded "really good"?I could have posted all the velocities for all my loads I used until I found the sweet spot in both my 6.5MS and 6.5S. What for? Reloaders and shooters are only interested in the loads that work. Quite the contrary; most everyone here has complained about the mystery and lack of information both you and 54 2.1 put out. I am posting all of the information just as you asked me to in this thread or have you forgotten already? For your information in testing both the 6.5MS and the 6.5S with various bullets with various lubes, with AC'ed and WQ'ed, never did any of the bullet go off my printer paper target at any velocity. In fact quite a few of them were very acceptable deer hunting accuracy, but not the accuracy I normally brag about here on the forum. Back to your test. I was kind of hoping for pressure curve and some bullet BC's too.

I can post the pressure curves if you like? I will not set up the down range screens (they are right in front of the 100 yards target) until accuracy is established. Most of the loads would have hit the screens with one or two shots at least. When accuracy is established then I will measure the BCs. I was using a target paper 18" wide and 24" tall but the aiming points were not all at the center. The edge of the target was about 6" from some of the aiming points.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Dutch and Gibson,

Look at these two chamber drawings. One is the Swede and the other is the Swede SKAN. Now being that Larry has gotten a few people slightly heated here I'll take this opportunity for some insurance for myself. These chamber drawings in no way refer, suggest, or even hint that neither of you two don't know of them. They are just here for information about Swede chambers. I also feel of all the European Mausers that the Swede's generally were more uniform in their dimensions.

Joe

Can't open the drawings. However, this is a milsurp M38 barrel. I am not aware of any M38s chambered in the 6.5 SKAN, are you? Besides that you might want to recal all your "justifications" for the 6.5MS use in lieu of the 6.5 Swede.


Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Okay folks, that's all the discussion for now. The test was completed and as noted by geargnasher; "the test successfully evaluated the performance of the components and techniques in question. The results were lousy, but the experiment very successful." The test is what it is and the results are there. That is only the beginning. It appears starmetal and 45 2.1 are taking the accuracy results as some sort of proof that accuracy can't be had at HV in the Swede and thus coming up with excuses. That is not any sort of conclusion I have come up with. As I have vehemently stated; That is but the first test!!!!!

I'll not discuss this test any further in this light. It is just a beginning and it indeed was successful in it gave me good data to work from and I learned a few techniques peculiar to loading with this type of filler. The tests will continue so please quit griping about the results so far, they are simply what they are.

Larry Gibson